Salamander Space Marines

kainthedragoonx · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:49 pm

wittdooley wrote:

Ugh...Don't run bikes and speeders with Vulkan as a salamander. It completely goes against everything that the Salamanders and their home world are about. Nocturne has fucked up gravity and is volcanic, so they rarely---and I mean rarely as in never---use speeders and bikes.

Just my 2c though... I like to keep my armies true to fluff. That's why I don't have a Shrike army yet....I don't have enough beakie heads.

Agreed! I don't run Bikes or Speeders in my sallies. I only run Assault Marines because it gets me the battle company formation for Apoc! And that formation is awesome sauce! geek

_________________
Warhammer Fantasy Overlord

CaptainHonkey · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:10 pm

And its cool that in the new marines codex Assault Marines are cheapier to Very Happy

_________________
Raven Guard
Win- 1 (Those Chaos Marines never even saw me coming)
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Space Wolves
Win- 0
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Wood Elves
Win- 3 (LOL. Dwarves trying to shoot Wood Elves in the forest)
Lose- 1 (HOW DID I LOSE TO TOMB KINGS?!)
Tie- 1 (Stupid Vampire Counts, THEY NEVER DIE!!!)

kainthedragoonx · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:22 pm

Hell yes they are cheaper! pale

And Deep Striking off the locator beacon of a drop pod is sweet...loving that action! cheers

_________________
Warhammer Fantasy Overlord

CaptainHonkey · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:38 pm

True. Now mabye i wont scatter and die as much geek

_________________
Raven Guard
Win- 1 (Those Chaos Marines never even saw me coming)
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Space Wolves
Win- 0
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Wood Elves
Win- 3 (LOL. Dwarves trying to shoot Wood Elves in the forest)
Lose- 1 (HOW DID I LOSE TO TOMB KINGS?!)
Tie- 1 (Stupid Vampire Counts, THEY NEVER DIE!!!)

archite666 · Neophyte Posts: 175 Join date: 2008-12-24

wittdooley wrote:

Ugh...Don't run bikes and speeders with Vulkan as a salamander. It completely goes against everything that the Salamanders and their home world are about. Nocturne has fucked up gravity and is volcanic, so they rarely---and I mean rarely as in never---use speeders and bikes.

Just my 2c though... I like to keep my armies true to fluff. That's why I don't have a Shrike army yet....I don't have enough beakie heads.

*shakes fists* But don't you want to win?!?!

No seriously, its cool you can take the high road and play the game the way it was ment, I envy that as we all know hot cheddar flows though my veins.

Even without a full bike list, I believe a vulkan list could be very decent as you can still make use of him though infantry.

HAND OF DUME · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:29 pm

Screw the bikes and speeders, he's worth taking to just get twin-linked meltas and flamers, as long as you load out on them.

_________________
If the Emperor is the light of Mankind, then I am the eternal darkness he is now lost in.

There is no cheese, just whiney rats who lose too much!

2009 D.B. Cooper Con Fall Champion

HELLFISH FOR THE WIN!

archite666 · Neophyte Posts: 175 Join date: 2008-12-24

woah woah, don't go crazy there...

bikes are optional sure...ish...

speeders? youd be crazy to not take them, oh I could have a free upgraded badass, contesting machine but nahhhh!

Unless your talking about fluff....then yeah as keeping with the fluff would serve, that would be as viable as it gets.

HAND OF DUME · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:58 pm

I wouldn't take them as I shoot them down like swatting flies when ever I play against them. IMO... worthless. Maybe all those players just don't know how to run them.

_________________
If the Emperor is the light of Mankind, then I am the eternal darkness he is now lost in.

There is no cheese, just whiney rats who lose too much!

2009 D.B. Cooper Con Fall Champion

HELLFISH FOR THE WIN!

CaptainHonkey · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:13 pm

Land Speeder aren't that great now that in 5th edition you can shoot thru cover. Unless you have 1 in a squad and deep strike in with a Multi-Melta, then its a good tank killer

_________________
Raven Guard
Win- 1 (Those Chaos Marines never even saw me coming)
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Space Wolves
Win- 0
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Wood Elves
Win- 3 (LOL. Dwarves trying to shoot Wood Elves in the forest)
Lose- 1 (HOW DID I LOSE TO TOMB KINGS?!)
Tie- 1 (Stupid Vampire Counts, THEY NEVER DIE!!!)

Ricter · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:41 pm

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagree. Land Speeders are probably the best Fast Attack choice for C:SM, hands down.

Bike squads aren't worth it unless you have a captain on a bike, and then they're not FA anymore.

Attack bikes die easier, have less weapon options, less maneuverability, no deepstrike option, and can get bogged down by terrain and assault, for only 10 less points.

Assault Squads are mediocre at best since they can't score anymore. Their idea setup - 2x flamers - doesn't do much more damage than then heavy flamer from the LS, and cost a lot more points.

HAND OF DUME · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:53 pm

IMO... anything armor 10 all the way around totally sucks! You need to also go flat out to receive a cover save and you can't always rely on terrain to give you one. Deep striking too close and you're toast from even small arms fire. Like I said ...swatting flies. Twisted Evil

_________________
If the Emperor is the light of Mankind, then I am the eternal darkness he is now lost in.

There is no cheese, just whiney rats who lose too much!

2009 D.B. Cooper Con Fall Champion

HELLFISH FOR THE WIN!

CaptainHonkey · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:09 pm

DUME is right they die way to quick, even against bolters

Bikes and Assault squads are the best Fast Attack Choices cause they survive for a long time if you know how to use them and they can perform pretty much any role, Close Combat, Tank Hunters, etc.

_________________
Raven Guard
Win- 1 (Those Chaos Marines never even saw me coming)
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Space Wolves
Win- 0
Lose- 0
Tie- 0

Wood Elves
Win- 3 (LOL. Dwarves trying to shoot Wood Elves in the forest)
Lose- 1 (HOW DID I LOSE TO TOMB KINGS?!)
Tie- 1 (Stupid Vampire Counts, THEY NEVER DIE!!!)

archite666 · Neophyte Posts: 175 Join date: 2008-12-24

Ricter wrote:

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagree. Land Speeders are probably the best Fast Attack choice for C:SM, hands down.

Bike squads aren't worth it unless you have a captain on a bike, and then they're not FA anymore.

Attack bikes die easier, have less weapon options, less maneuverability, no deepstrike option, and can get bogged down by terrain and assault, for only 10 less points.

Assault Squads are mediocre at best since they can't score anymore. Their idea setup - 2x flamers - doesn't do much more damage than then heavy flamer from the LS, and cost a lot more points.

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

You guys probably arnt looking at the overall awesomeness of the landspeeder, its amazing and so many roles including suicide. I dont know if I feel like trying to convince you but id seriously rethink your opnion if you dont think the speeder is awesome.

wittdooley · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:47 am

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

_________________
Warhammer Fantasy:
Lizardmen (2-0-0): The Lizardmen win their first skirmish for Lustria over JTs Lizardmen tribe.

Wood Elves (14-3-0): The wood elves are retired after proving their mettle.

Warhammer 40K:
Salamanders (3-1-1): Salamanders use meltas to great effect against the Shit Eagles.

Hordes:
Skorne (2-0) 500 pt win in Danny's first game.

archite666 · Neophyte Posts: 175 Join date: 2008-12-24

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

HAND OF DUME · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:47 am

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

Let us all bow to the almighty professor. Rolling Eyes

_________________
If the Emperor is the light of Mankind, then I am the eternal darkness he is now lost in.

There is no cheese, just whiney rats who lose too much!

2009 D.B. Cooper Con Fall Champion

HELLFISH FOR THE WIN!

wittdooley · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:18 pm

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

_________________
Warhammer Fantasy:
Lizardmen (2-0-0): The Lizardmen win their first skirmish for Lustria over JTs Lizardmen tribe.

Wood Elves (14-3-0): The wood elves are retired after proving their mettle.

Warhammer 40K:
Salamanders (3-1-1): Salamanders use meltas to great effect against the Shit Eagles.

Hordes:
Skorne (2-0) 500 pt win in Danny's first game.

archite666 · Neophyte Posts: 175 Join date: 2008-12-24

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that. Smile

wittdooley · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:06 am

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that. Smile

Are you really oblivious to how much you rub people the wrong way in this community?

_________________
Warhammer Fantasy:
Lizardmen (2-0-0): The Lizardmen win their first skirmish for Lustria over JTs Lizardmen tribe.

Wood Elves (14-3-0): The wood elves are retired after proving their mettle.

Warhammer 40K:
Salamanders (3-1-1): Salamanders use meltas to great effect against the Shit Eagles.

Hordes:
Skorne (2-0) 500 pt win in Danny's first game.

Ricter · Subject: Re: Salamander Space Marines Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:39 am

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though. Smile

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that. Smile

Are you really oblivious to how much you rub people the wrong way in this community?

I'd encourage you to consider stopping the name calling - it just makes you look childish.

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, consider actually addressing the points at hand. Especially considering this community values a clean discussion board, something you are no doubt aware of.

With regards to bikes - they're a fantastic unit. But if you're going to take them, you might as well take a captain on a bike, meaning that they're Troops instead, and no longer compete with Land Speeders, giving you the best of both worlds.

Assault Squads aren't a bad unit by themselves, they just cost way too many points for what they do. 210 points for a unit with just 10 bodies and two flamers, compared to a speeder which is only 60 points with a heavy flamer - meaning you can get nearly 4 speeders for the price of one assault squad.

And really, what edition are you playing? Dying to bolter fire doesn't really apply anymore, since you can't destroy on a glance without bonuses. Just to humor you, I'll run the numbers anyways.

18 BS 4 shots is 12 hits. 2 of which will glance, meaning only 1/3 will actually cause lasting damage. In order to actually down the speeder, they need three of these hits (I'm going by memory, they may only need two, or average 2.5), meaning on average it takes 54 BS 4 bolter shots to down a single landspeeder.

18 BS 4 shots is 12 hits, S4 vs T4 is 6 wounds. 2 marines die to a salvo, meaning that they will need 5 turns to down the assault marines squad, or 90 shots.

At first glance, this implies that the assault marines are tougher - until you realize you can have 4 land speeders for the same cost, averaging 216 shots to take down - significantly more than the marines. On top of this, the marines will also eventually be making morale checks to stay in the game, something the speeders don't have to deal with. Another weapon on the speeder also has the potential to drag out the time for a kill even longer.

There are other variables of course. In the Land Speeder's favor, they can make their own cover save, are immune to s3 or less, have a longer effective range, never have to make morale and are significantly less vulnerable to template weapons. ASM can make better use of cover (although they can't make their own) and don't get hurt as much by a stray lucky shot.