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 Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell

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Evil Bob
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PostSubject: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:29 pm

This spell returns 1d6 wounds worth of models with exceptions. Characters, ‘vampires’, ethereals, and non-infantry can only get one wound back.

Off -hand it is very natural to presume that mean only Zombies, Skeletons, Crypt Ghouls, and Grave Guard get the full 1d6. That is what I thought at first and it is wrong.

At the rear of the book bat-swarms and fell bats are listed as Infantry. As well as spirit hosts and cairn wraiths (but they don’t get the full 1d6 anyways being ethereal).

Just a heads up in case someone tries to use the spell with the vampire power Summon Creatures of the Night on Fell Bats or Bat Swarms and sudden the units get one or more new figures.



A few other factors of interest

  • They wouldn’t use the phrase “1d6 wounds worth of models,” instead it would be “1d6 worth of models,” or even, “multi wound models can only very get back 1 wound with each casting. Their choice of wording was very careful on purpose.
  • Monsters listed in the main book always have at least a 4 Toughness and 3 Wounds. Neither of which cover any swarms or the Fell Bats.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:54 am

quote from the main rule book, small version:

"Infantry
Infamtry includesall units of foot troops, be they Goblins, Men, Ogres, Trolls or any other of the myriad Warhammerraces fighting on foot."
I think that leaves out flyers and such. Pg. 7 of the small rule book if you want to look it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:14 am

While researching VC for myself I happened upon this quote from Joe Sleboda..

Quote :
In 6th edition I often debated the merits of cannon sniping with people and in order to frame the discussion I would tell people to not think of them as cannons. Why? Most people accept spectral warrios, wizards with comets, and flying lizards as big as a boat in the game, but when they see a cannon shoot the head off their general they cry "That's unrealistic. In such and such a war a cannon had an effective accuracy of blach blah blah." They get caught on the term. In truth, a "cannon" in Warhammer is (for the Empire) a roughly 75mm long, 40mm side reference marker on the table top. It stands in for a set of rules that allow a player to nominate a section of the table upon which to inflict a Strength 10 hit with a little luck. Portion of this rules piece can be removed, 3 seperate pieces, so that the main rule object is no longer able to inflict its hits. This rule object has a range of 60 inches, needs line of sight, and so on. We represent this set of rules with something that looks like what you might think of a large metal gun and its attendant crew. Let's call this set of rules and the figures which stand for it on the table a Cannon.

Once you frame it this way it becomes much easier to settle the rulels debates that arise. It's no longer about whether a cannon can or cannot do something. It's about the rules and what those rules say.

The same applies here to infantry bats. According to the rules source the model that has a flying movement of 20 inches, a profile that includes a S and T of 3, and so on is lumped in with the same game term that describes a man-like being that has poisonous attacks and T4, yet moves only 4 inches. The term that applies to both is a term that is used elsewhere in the rules for the same game that allows them to enter buildings.

Poor rules wording? It seems so.

The fault of the player who wants to apply the same rules to the same things in the game that are governed by the same term? Not at all.

Its a classic RAW vs RAI debate and should be cleared up by Alessio in the near furute. I know the same debate exists in regards to casting into close combat with Nehek.

This is but one area of many which turned me away from Vampire Counts. This army can be very devastating if the player opens himself to WAAC.

A temptation I knew I would not be able to handle Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:20 pm

Ok look at the back of the book in the summary page it lists what is a infantry model, hero/lord, monstouros and such the batts are in the infantry catagory so they do fall under it, so there is no true debate there it says in its rules
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:22 pm

missed the building part, but here is how I take,(which by the way the bat swarms can only move a max of 10 inches) but if they fly they can not enter buildings(makes since to me) but they can use the walk move(a whole 1 inch) to enter it
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:30 pm

Thanks Frostwolf. I thought I had brought up the refrence sheet in the back. My bad.

The VC books only classifies the Corpse Cart and Varghulf as Monsters. Fell Bats and Bat swarms are clearly listed as Infantry. All of the ethereals are listed as infantry in this book too.

The working on the spell was apparently very carefully chossen.

Flying Units are classification under the special rules part unit and not a designated unit type. That's why it doesn't show up when the Unit Types are listed on page 6 & 7 of the hardback rule book: Infantry, Cavalry, Warmachine, Chariot, Monster, Characters.


Aside with how the points work out using toughness 2 and 3 models when there are toughness 4 wights requires some serious thought. If someone wants to tie up a unit zombies do it cheeper and with more wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:15 pm

like most games, WFB has a few holes in the rules, I am trying to imagine a fell bat standing in the door of a tower defending it, that gave me a chuckle, thinking of an Ogre or troll fitting through the door in the first place was amusing as well Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:15 pm

I talked to gamesworkshop about this when I called to get the same answer for the 3rd time on the autohit/only on 6's question and asked them this question. They said though it isn't the intention, everything listed as infantry is treated as infantry, so they get the full healing unless disqualified in another way like ethereal. The important part is that they can all do anything any other infantry can do, like defend buildings. Enjoy it, I was left to believe it would be addressed in an errata. For now though, you get full healing and 20' flight movement to get to and defend any buildings Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 pm

What's a furute?
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:33 pm

bat swarms only can move 10 inches to points out, also my experince with talking with gamesworksop is it simply doesnt work, they will argue with themselves about certain rules and I immagine this is one of them that will remain(they will I even if they give it a faq still regain full wounds) also read the books unlike other flyers they do enter and fight in buildings(swoop down from the rafters and fly around with a dwarf in their claws comes to mind). Unlike most fliyers(dragons, flying horses of any type, monsters) the fell bats are human sized(maybe slightly larger) and the bat swarms are just bats(and have their movement halved so they pay for it) and are not normaly worth their point cost so they do need something like the increseable number size and easier healing
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:40 pm

Bat Swarms don't even count for any of the Core. For their min unit price one can have a skeletal unit with full command, with armor saves, higher toughness, better damage. The bats have skirmish and possible tie-up value. My preference is for the unit that can fight.

They aren't useless. As a high point game add-on for specialize role. In 4K or less games there are just better options.


Last edited by Angry Bob on Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:42 pm

Never said they were useless but if they lose the invocation rule then they lose the one true thing they have going for them(being a swarm hurts them due to its causeing them to lose movement)
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:46 pm

FrostWolf wrote:
Never said they were useless but if they lose the invocation rule then they lose the one true thing they have going for them(being a swarm hurts them due to its causeing them to lose movement)
Not you. Me.

I advocate for certain units and the last intention is to make people think that if they aren't playing MY style of force they are wrong. Really trying to avoid sounding like an arrogant prick.

In the last editon of the game WFB was pretty good for trying out varying force types and be competitive. Not so sure with the current rules. Need to see a lot more games first.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:09 pm

what size base are fellbats on? A human base is 20m or 25m for big boyz. If I am correct, they are on a 30m base, same base as ogres, trolls and minotaurs. Not that it is important for what we are talking about. The rules allow it, even on a 30m base and I still find the image of a bat the size of an ogre swooping in through a door the size of the one I use to get in my house comical Smile. Have a little fun, enjoy life, not let it stress you out so much Smile. I have lots of personal experience with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Important rule point about the Invocation of Nehek spell   Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:22 pm

Well think about them trying to get through normal buildings at all the hall ways are mostly to small for them also, as for base size you would have to ask bob I dont have any fell bats,then again the zombies wouldnt have it easy since they cant move that fast and are like most of the army animated by the vampires and necromancers, the funny thing is the fell bats, and bat swarms are still living bats just corupted and controled by the vampire and yet they count as being undead never will understand that one
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