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 Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?

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altahara
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PostSubject: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 7:36 am

as the title said.. which is better? carapace for a 4+ save.. or cybernetics.. which does a 6+ invul.. they are the same points.. ive gone back and forth.. carapace gives better chance to save against bolters.. cybernetics gives a shot against everything else.... donno opinions?
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:16 am

They are both really bad, they make guardsman expensive... any guard player will tell you that that's a bad idea.

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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:36 am

Indeed. Just buy more bodies Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 6:53 pm

almost all armies have an ap5 basic weapon and carapace armor gives you a 50/50 save against it, but then again i dont play guard
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 6:56 pm

when I made my list I always used the 4+ save the cyvbernetics(6+ inv) can just be plain annoying for ur enomy but I dont think it is worth it outside of a apoc game
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 7:06 pm

okay i am an actual guard player and first of all matt once again is high i don't know A guard player that doesn't take carapace armor on there troops. YOU NEED carapace armor don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. Now for cyber one don't unless you have nothing else to spend points on.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 8:49 pm

Haha, I don't know a COMPETITIVE guard player that DOES take Carapace armor.

Oh and please don't insinuate that I'm high, not really necessary. After all this is all just opinion.

I'm sure more of the competitive players here will tell you the same thing.

Although trying to play competitive guard in the first place is a paradox anyway Wink

... and wait, why isn't marc high too Sad

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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 8:59 pm

its tyler that says it all, also I disagree with you matt I made a competitive list that would use Carapace armor(hope you spelled it right). IT still had enough guns to kill most armies weither numbers or high saves(had a few lascannones and mostly autocannons) but I never finshed it beyond the 1300 point mark, ran out of room
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:09 pm

I 100% disagree with taking Carapace armour.

Seriously guys.. take more bodies which gives you more guns. Guard are about as many average guys with as much average shooting as possible.. not fewer slightly better guys who still shoot on average. Two basic platoons upgraded to carapace equals 120pts. Go buy another platoon.

You want an armour save? Go find some cover. That patch of woods or bit of rubble is free. Hell, your wrecked tanks offer a 4+ cover.

What about close combat? Whoopee I saved an extra wound for every six caused Rolling Eyes
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:11 pm

Im my experance when needed most cover is not there, which hurts a ton, so tradieng for a certain 4+ save is worth it in that respect, now does every squad need it, no hvy guns do not need it but they have to be in cover to stand a chance of living anyways
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Tyler
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:22 pm

Okay so from what you guys are saying I shouldn't take a mark for my Chaos huh?
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Tyler
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:22 pm

Or you Space Marines shouldn't take tank hunters
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:47 pm

Uh no they aren't saying that, MArines, Guard, Eldar, Orks... they differ.
Forget competitive Guard player any COMPETENT guard player would buy more meat for the meat shield...
And yes I play Guard too. If you have to rely on those meat puppets to take and make saves your gonna lose cause you did something wrong...

Just don't do it. Officer yes troops no.

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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 9:51 pm

Tyler wrote:
Okay so from what you guys are saying I shouldn't take a mark for my Chaos huh?
Tyler wrote:
Or you Space Marines shouldn't take tank hunters

Who suggested these?

I think someone needs a nap..
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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Mon May 05, 2008 11:42 pm

ok, so instead of saving against every bolter out there, i should take one more infantry Squad..10 more guys.. because in the list immaking taking carapace off would save 160 points.. maybe 20 guys if they didnt take a spec weapon... so thats 2more lascannon shots... BUT 2 squads of shooting would kill both squads outright.. whereas with the 4+ would at least save the heavy weapons...



SINCE this seems to be a heated and split debate.... im taking carapace at the tourney... and if i win, well if i win any games hehe ill be shocked, the tourney then we can put this to rest.. if i lose.. well just means i suck at 40k.. rofl Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 12:21 am

Do yourself a favor and play to win. Drop the armor. Test it out this saturday!

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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 1:22 am

You don't have to just take our word for it, look at this tactica.

Dakka Dakka Guard Doctrine Article

The quote on the two doctrine in question.

Quote :

Cameleoline & Carapace Armour

I'm going to lump these two together as they're the only two Special Equipment Doctrines you'll ever take so must be compared to one another pretty closely.

Cameleoline is an exceptional Doctrine and is truly the only worthwhile Special Equipment Doctrine. Cameleoline is a prime example of playing towards a strength rather than to a weakness. It can get a bit pricey though as you have to give it to everyone. Cameleoline also has a good place in Mechanised forces, where model counts are smaller and therefore each individual Guardsman becomes slightly more important. You'll have less squads so you'll want them to survive for longer. Guard rely on cover saves more than anything, so Cameleoline enhances that meaning that your few troops survive for longer, perfect for a Mechanised force.

Carapace Armour is extremely expensive, but does make your guys immune to Bolters. If you are playing an all Drop Troop army and you intend to Deep Strike your entire army whenever you get the chance, then Carapace Armour can come in handy, otherwise stick to Cameleoline.

Now, to compare the two:

When looking at Doctrines like Carapace Armour and even cheaper ones like Cameleoline, always weight the benefits of having 30 men with 4+ armour saves (240 points before weapons) vs having 40 men with 5+ saves (also 240 points before weapons). As I've said in the past, most Guard players will opt for the 'more men' option because it's more beneficial to have a bigger model count than expensive Guardsmen.

Another reason I don't take Carapace Armour is because, like Hardened Fighters, taking Carapace Armour is playing to a weakness rather than a strength. Guard are weak, Guard are expendable. Guard belong in cover. Carapace Armour increases their armour save when most of the time Guard are taking cover saves not armour saves. It's a 33.33% increase in the cost of the squad to make up for a weakness in the Guard army.

Now, as I said, throwing points at a weakness in the hope that the weakness will 'go away' once each Guardsman gets expensive enough is a really bad idea. What you should be doing is putting points towards your strengths. Guard, as I said above, should be in cover. Guard often rely on the strength of the cover they are in, getting nice 4+ cover saves against whatever evil nasty guns the enemy can fire against them. So, what do you do? Well, for half the cost of Carapace Armour you can give them Cameleoline. This is an example of throwing points at a strength rather than a weakness. You're in cover already, so why pay 20 points for an increased armour save? Pay half that and get an increased cover save - something you're using all the time - and make your squads even tougher.

It's also far easier to weigh up the benefits vs costs with Cameleoline than it is with Carapace Armour:

5 Squads w/Cameleoline = 350 points before weapons = 50 models with a 3+ cover save.
6 Squads w/o Cameleoline = 360 points before weapons = 60 models with a 4+ cover save.
I'll leave it to you to work out what you like more.

Carapace Armour is a Doctrine you should avoid unless you're doing that All Drop Troops army. Cameleoline is a fantastic Doctrine that should be taken if you can justify the cost. 10 points a squad will catch up to you, and if you find yourself spending over 100 points on it you must take a fresh look at your army and decide if an increased cover save is worth more than an extra 20+ men.

Cyber-Enhancement

The last Doctrine in the 'Oh my God' category of useless Doctrines, Cyber-Enhancement is about the stupidest thing you could ever do in your Guard army. 20 points, per squad, for your entire army, for a 6+(I) save? WTF? I shouldn't have to explain why this one is stupid.

Cyber-Enhancement is a terrible waste of a Doctrine Point should never be taken. It is an insult to your opponent to take such a Doctrine as you're basically admitting to them "I'm a complete fracking moron and you're going to win this without trying". And who wants to win without even trying?

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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 8:24 am

I think that pretty much says it all! In other words, FORGET THE FRICKIN' CARAPACE ARMOR!
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 9:24 am

Everyone has to have an opinion.

... and while in general, carapace armor is pretty bad (plays to a weakness rather than a strength) some people do make it work... drop troops for example.

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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 9:54 am

That 6+ invuln is total garbage though....

Go with the camoflauge cloaks and hide in woods, ruins, behind your own vehicles or in buildings.
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 10:02 am

Yup, or just hide in cover without any upgrade.

Just ask yourself, what is the one redeeming thing about the average guardsman?

They are cheap!

So don't take that advantage away!

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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 11:17 am

When in dought....RUN THEM UP BEHIND A BIG ROCK!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 12:51 pm

very, veeerrry constructive CJ.

oh, it's doubt btw.

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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 12:52 pm

I think that was something he and Marc did. I remember an earlier post about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Tue May 06, 2008 12:56 pm

WoHG Tourney; Game 3

CJ takes his remaining 500pts worth of GK Termies and hid behind a DZ big rock from my remaining 1700pts standing in the center of an objective Field of Battle. Almost 3000vps for me that game..
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PostSubject: Re: Which is better? carapaceor cybernetic doctorins?   Today at 7:45 pm

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