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 Cheesiness/Beardiness

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Nathan
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PostSubject: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:31 pm

Voice your thoughts and opinions on Cheesy/Beardy lists/units.

I personally have heard many cries of cheese against things that really do not seem cheesy (where did cheese come from anyway?) I have heard min/maxing is cheesy, monoliths are cheesy, Eldar are cheesy (no really, you all should see how this one guy plays them), Nidzillas are cheesy, hidden fist of doom is cheesy, drop pods are cheesy, and a lot more than I care to talk about. Point being, these are really just units and lists that have few inobvious weaknesses, or people do not like finding ways to beat them. As my signiture is "Insanity is only measured by those around you," I have changed that to fit this: "Cheesiness is only measured by those that play you."
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:50 pm

I for one think 'Cheesiness/Beardiness' is a very stupid notion.

If someone beat you because they have a powerful army list, don't cry cheese... They have obviously put the effort into making a good list and learning to use it.

Going against the fluff of the game (say having 9 landspeeders with a tiny marine force) is something too. It doesn't bother me too much, as after all, it is a game (that and not everyone even cares to pay attention to the fluff).

Really, if you don't like going up against a 'cheesy' list there are a few things to note.

1) Tournaments are not the place for you.
2) People will do what they have to do to win, no matter what anyone says, they do not enjoy playing a game and losing every time.
3) You don't have to play people who you don't enjoy playing.

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JMarv
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:19 am

While tournaments are very competitive, and therefore unlikely to see "fluff" armies, I think one of the biggest drivers of cheesiness is the retooling of the list for each opponent. Most lists will have a weakness against certain others or certain missions. If all you do is play on the weekends with the ability to customize your force against a certain enemy and always play cleanse, it gives the impression of cheesiness, especially if both sides aren't playing the same game. Playing in local tournaments is great I think, since it forces you to play many different armies and scenarios with the same list.
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Rhino-182
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:31 am

matt, i'd have to disagree with you. some people do play chesey. it may be them tweaking their list, but you can play chesey without having to. like nathan said, some units are just cheasy. jmarv is also right about people changing lists.
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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:36 am

My old Iron Warriors were called this so called "cheese" but I though it was tame..

Instead of 9 Oblits I had 4

Only took a Basi OR a Vindi

Only 2 vehicles (Basi and a Rhino)

One HQ

60 Undivided Marines

..funny, I can do the same setup with the new Dex and no one would cry cheese Rolling Eyes
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:39 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying cheese, its just that a lot of people in the general gaming world seem to enjoy finding cheese in army lists.
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JMarv
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:52 am

People just like to try and find the "best" thing in a set of rules, it's just human nature. It's like people trying to maximize their tax refund. Everyone likes winning and feeling dominant, and having rules creates a framework to have it mean something. I think finding combinations that work really well is a fun part of the game. And there are enough different but successful combinations. The only problem I would have is it devolved into everyone playing the same list because it's just that much better. If you want to play with a configuration that is super fluffy, play against someone else who feels the same way.
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:02 pm

All in agreement with JMarv, raise both hands and say Aye!

cheers Aye!
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:57 pm

Aye cheers

It really is human nature.

Ryan: In my opinion I have barely ever faced an opponent and believed a unit to just be cheese. Every unit in the 40k universe has a weakness... Be it high points cost, weak in one particular area or any other number of reasons.

Take the 2 monoliths for example. At a combined 470 points of his list, CJ will have a hard time with any list that can competently take them on/avoid them. By sinking that many points into the monoliths he has put a dent in the phase out number he could have had. Once John hits his lines with even 2 hidden power fists you can kiss goodbye to those Necrons.

What I'm saying is, 40k list making is all checks and balances. You go for an ultra powerful unit, you normally end up losing something else.

One of the hardest parts about learning the game is learning to deal with these "cheesy" units. It's much easier to decry them and call them cheese. Trust me, learning to beat a well tuned list is much more rewarding than crying cheese at it. I've been there and done that (I think I've called Marc's lists cheese a few times out of frustration).

If anyone wants, make a list of units they think are cheesy. We'll talk about exactly why they aren't all that bad.

I'm with John though, tournaments really are a good way to enjoy your army. Playing different opponents than the regular ones you play is very fun.

BUT, you will play well written and well played lists in tournaments. And if you think that = cheese, then even tournaments are not the best place for you.

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Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:14 pm

Hey Matt......my Pase out number is 11.......14 is the max out number for a Necron Army.....so even if I did throw more troops in or another 5 destroyers.....it would not have moved very much.......besides....you still need to get through the 2 monoliths to even touch my troops...
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:31 pm

CJ what are you talking about? The whole thing here is that some people call Monoliths Cheesy, so what is your point?

Are you saying they are cheesy in your opinion? I was trying to point out a few of the weakness of having two of them in a 1750 point list.

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Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:48 pm

your stating above to how I perseave your comment that with me spending 500 pts by using 2 monoliths that I will have a hard time with different lists. In my opinion....it's other armies that will have problems. Not trying to start an argumant buddy. These are all opinions.....
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Rhino-182
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:53 pm

cheers Aye
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:31 pm

It's true monoliths will helps you in a lot of situations but there are many where they won't help you.

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Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:44 pm

then that's were tatics come in.......and a good head start on the other guy.......


And Ryan.....just cuz I play a cheesy list in a tourny doesn't mean I'm going to campaign one.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:50 pm

gah I give up.


There is no such thing as cheese, seriously. It's a competitive game against another opponent!

If you don't want to deal with competitive lists play a pen and paper RPG (although even there you will find power gamers).

It's like John said, it's human nature to want to win.

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Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:01 pm

CJ: I did not hear you say cheers Aye!
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:09 pm

cheesy lists are just excuses for why someone lost a battle nothing is truly chessey in the end its just a pain to kill army but it can be defeated
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:12 pm

Frostwolf: I did not hear you say cheers Aye! either.
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:13 pm

im to lazy and anyways how is a wolf supposed to hold his paws up like that and stand oh well guess ill leave u to figure that out
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:15 pm

I don't care how you do it man/wolf/creature-thingy. JUST DO IT!!!!!!!
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:16 pm

fine ........ cheers ......happy
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:17 pm

You still didn't say Aye!
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:18 pm

cheers Aye......
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Cheesiness/Beardiness   Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:19 pm

Thank You. Now where is everyone else (CJ included) doing that to agree with JMarv?
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