A friendly group of people looking to share their Hobby!!!
 
HomeFAQSearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsLog in

Share | 
 

 Post Your Thoughts on 5th...

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Affliction
Forum Moderator


Posts : 655
Join date : 2007-08-20
Age : 42
Location : Cincinnati, Oh.

PostSubject: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:26 pm

Ok, so most of us have had a few days to soak the 5th edition of the rules in. You might not have played a game yet but what is your first impression of what you have read or maybe if you got a game in how did it play. I am wanting to compare this post to one down the road after everyone has had a chance to play a 1/2 dozen games or so and how opinions change. Don't want the opinions of what other people say is good or bad but what you think.

Format:

Good - (what you think is a good change toward making the game flow)

Bad - (what you think is a horrible or maybe just a bad rule that hinders the game)

Biggest Change - (what you think will most change the game)

Favorite thing - (the thing you most like about the new rules...not fluff, new pics, etc.)

Anything else you want to say about the RULES post after the first part

To make it easier to read please don't flow all your sentences. You dont have to color them but at least tag: good, bad, biggest change, and favorite

_________________


40K Stats: ...is dead to me Evil or Very Mad
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://theblackparade2010.blogspot.com/
Chethrok_Bloodfist
Neophyte


Posts : 189
Join date : 2008-07-12
Location : The deepest pits of Hell ...

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:02 pm

Good:

- Assaults. They make more sense and there's less cherry picking.

- The "Run" rule. Makes things a lot more interesting.

- Units (friendly or enemy) provide a 4+ cover save. It's a compromise between 3e (which made meat shielding too good) and 4e (the target priority rule made meat shielding almost worthless). It also presents an interesting dilemma: if you put yourself behind some friendlies, you'll get a cover save, but you'll also grant the enemy cover saves when shooting out.

Bad:

- The way shooting wounds are allocated. You can now lose heavy weapons troopers before the normal dudes if you get hit with a large number of wounds at once and he fails his save.

- True LoS. It slows the game down, is a lot more vague, and is going to engender countless arguments among rules lawyers across the world. I'm buying a laser pointer.

Biggest Change - Emphasis on big units. Both the new shooting and assault rules heavily favor large units, and I don't think that's a good thing. The shooting rules, especially, penalize small units.

Favorite Thing - I'd have to go with the "Go to Ground" rule. It doesn't seem especially useful (I can't think of many situations when I'd need it), but it sure is flavorful.

"Hit the dirt! Jensen, get down on the gr-- aw hell."
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:29 pm

Hmm

Good

-The Run Rule

-Troops as scoring

-The missions (emphasis on objectives)

-Vehicles getting a little tougher again

-The wound allocation (I like the fact that heavy weapons can be hit, and that hidden power fists are no longer as easy to hide)

-The fluff, always nice to get a load of new fluff (and to have old stuff re-introduced)

-I think I like most of the changes really

Bad

-As usual, certain things got nerfed as a side effect of nerfing things that needed it. Some units went from must use to useless. Not always a bad thing, but frustrating. Really, it's something to be expected with any major rule shift.

-I'm iffy on true LOS, as was mentioned before me... it can cause arguments. Still, it was never a huge issue in 3rd or 2nd Ed. So i don't foresee too much of an issue.

-I think some armies were also boosted to levels which make them very difficult to fight in 5th. Orks, Black Templar (preferred enemy on every model + run = disgusting) and maybe even horde nid. Still, this seems less of a "bad" thing than something I will have to prepare better for in 5th.

Biggest Change

I think there are a few that fit here.

-Run is a big one, armies are now far more mobile.

-Troops as the only scorers is obviously a huge one.

-True LOS... this will take a few people a while to get used to, and many (including most of us) will have to rethink our terrain collections.

Favorite Thing

I think the game really shook the tournament/competitive scene up, so my favorite thing is that we will now enter a phase of learning everything again, how to use our armies in 5th and how to play against armies in 5th.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
CJ
Captain
Captain


Posts : 2334
Join date : 2007-08-20
Age : 41
Location : Harrison OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:09 pm

I like your last thought Matt....this puts almost everyone in the same boat. No one is goin to be any better then the other rule wise.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAND OF DUME
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-04-24
Age : 46
Location : Wastelands of the Miami county

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:24 pm

GOOD:
The counter-charge
Run rule
No consolidation into units
New Vehicle damage table

BAD:
LOS
Troops only as scoring units
Rending

BIGGEST CHANGE:
Run and all the cover saves

FAVORITE THING:
I'd have to agree also with Matt, it places everyone on an even keel. Even the "WARMASTERS" out there may have to rethink their game play.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Chethrok_Bloodfist
Neophyte


Posts : 189
Join date : 2008-07-12
Location : The deepest pits of Hell ...

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:51 pm

Matt wrote:
The wound allocation (I like the fact that heavy weapons can be hit, and that hidden power fists are no longer as easy to hide)

Don't you think it's a little odd that they changed the assault rules to stop people from cherry-picking the power fist guys, and at the same time changed the shooting rules so that it's possible to do it if you get enough hits? That struck me as very strange ...

It also gives a huge advantage to big units, because big units can allocate all their hits to the grunts and never have to worry about the sergeants/special weapons, while smaller units will always worry about it. Not to mention that those same big units will be able to pump out more shots and therefore be more likely to get enough hits that the enemy needs to allocate on their own sergeants/special weapons.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Marc
Fantasy Moderator


Posts : 2428
Join date : 2007-08-20
Location : Milford

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:58 pm

Most views are going to be skewed towards the players army choice and how it will perform versus how it did in 4th (duh, eh?) So I can see both sides of "Run" and how "Rending" now works, etc.

I'm sure a player like Ronnie is a bit miffed. His Stealers already had Fleet, their Rending is boned and now they cannot Sweep into a fresh enemy. Plus all those Stealer heads should be popped off for Feeder Tendrils.

I'll get thru the rules proper before I sound off officially Wink
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com/
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:51 pm

Interesting that LOS on the bad list. I went through this with Conf. Really didn't cause that many issues. It didn't cause any issues in AT43 or Infinity.

Infinity also layers in a rule that the area you see has to be as big as a head and that crouched figures, unusual posed figs are to be assumed to be standing and normal "height".

I bet in 2 months of play it won't cause a ton of issue. It is really easy to come over to your playing partners side of the table, hunker down and say yep, you can or no you can't see them.
Back to top Go down
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:10 pm

Quote :
Really didn't cause that many issues.

Yeah exactly what I'm saying, although it is in my bad list for now Wink

@ Chethrok

It is still easier to kill hidden power fists than it was in 4th, with the close combat wound allocation in 5th. Plus I don't really think it is too bad of a thing causing bigger units to be better. Makes more sense to me from a realism PoV. Still, I'd wait to play it (In the couple of games I have run it isn't too much of an issue... and it makes min/maxers think twice before they take min/maxed units... which is always a good thing.)

Lets take it to PM if we want to keep discussing it.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:31 pm

Not really sure how i feel about the whole first turn integrated with deployment thing. Having the enemy be able to take it back with a 6+ is what really bugs me.

i'll have to wait til i get more 5th Ed games in to see how it effects things. Didn't bug me too much in my first two games. in a more competitive tournament style setting i could see it being very annoying though.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
HAND OF DUME
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-04-24
Age : 46
Location : Wastelands of the Miami county

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:21 pm

Hey Matt, what did you play with, what armies did you play and who won?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:19 am

Still skimming rules and I have nothing to compare to 40K wise.

however, this one is kinda a negative.

They give 3 scenarios. both capture and control & seize ground require that your force is balanced to focus on the mission objectives.

However, then they place the caveat - "WIPEOUT"

"Regardless of victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game"

I understand the logic behind it (ie...if no one is left to hold objectives how could you be the winner.)

However, you can explain the other way...ie. You held out long enough to gather the information and send to your comrades electronically....you survived until reinforcements arrived etc.

It's not a bad rule...just undermines the direction of 2 of their major scenarios.
Back to top Go down
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:49 pm

@ JG

I think it would be a little off if there was a time sensitive objective, say you holding a computer terminal for 3 turns to upload information. But as all of the objectives need to be held until the end of the game i think it fits the background for the missions.

Now that you have me thinking though, it would be cool to have a mission that involved holding an objective (maybe 2 turns, 3 is probably very hard) and does not use the WIPEOUT rule at all. Could be pretty cool, and very tense. Maybe there are a few different objectives you have to hold.

@ DUME

1st Game was 1k pts

My Deathwing VS Ultramarine (balanced out force)

Went pretty well, Landraiders are just wrong at this point level now. Terminators also work well as scoring units (being deathwing and all). First game in 5th for both of us. He didn't take any troops below scoring, and i only had to beat back one assault squad from close combat. Other than that I just sat on the Objectives.

Wound allocation could be a problem in my army (small squad numbers but very specialized). Not too bad though. Run is definitely something I will need to get used to, I need to adjust my estimations. By the end of 4th I could look at the board and pretty much know which way a situation as gonna slide... got to relearn that skill for 5th now.

I'll be back with the second game later, lemme know if you have any other questions. Oh and btw, this ultramarine player was using the Dark Angel codex... said he wanted to get his army semi-ready for 5th, so he has been practicing with combat squads and such.

Oh and i love how you don't have to calculate VP's now, even if it does make tournament scoring a little harder.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:26 pm

Quote :
Now that you have me thinking though, it would be cool to have a mission that involved holding an objective (maybe 2 turns, 3 is probably very hard) and does not use the WIPEOUT rule at all. Could be pretty cool, and very tense. Maybe there are a few different objectives you have to hold.

Exactly

Infinity has some missions I've played with this structure. ie. get to an objective and activate = 1 VP (whether multiple rounds or just touch). The opponent either can "shut it off" with a touch in their round or there exist Several to activate. Each bunch of 3 activated = 1 VP.

If your opponent kills you to a man it doesn't matter b/c you "got" the objective.

Conf tournaments ran similar as well. As soon as the last man was "killed" the game stopped and objectives were tallied. So it could still end in a tie or an odd chance win for the destroyed army. Obviously the obliterated army rarely scored any objectives but if the opponent did not hold an objective when he fired the last shot, neither did he. Prevented folks from gettting a "Win" when the PRIMARY objective really wasn't to kill all your opponents.

Essentially the rule kept someone from bringing a beatstick list to competitive events with the sole goal of killing the opponent for the win. This can really be a bummer if you're trying to move troops around to get objectives.

I like that better then awarding the win for killing off your opponent since it really isn't the objective.

By layering in WIPEOUT it means that anyone can show up and try to play "Annihilation" anytime they want.

note: I will say since I am unfamiliar with the playstyle of 40K armies this may be entirely necessary. If an army is a feather weight it may be nigh impossible for them to hold objectives for long periods of time necessitating the goal of killing the enemy.
Back to top Go down
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:33 pm

Beat stick armies are a lot more rare in 40k imo. It's not that common for a player to wipe the other in a pretty even match up.

Also I'm not sure that timed objectives like that would fit into 40k, worth trying out though. GW seem to really encourage mission creation (even dedicating a few pages to it) so you should see what you can come up with.

I'll need to play a few more games before i get to see if this kind of objective could work.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
methoderik
Neophyte


Posts : 85
Join date : 2008-05-14
Location : Loveland

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:51 pm

Matt wrote:
He didn't take any troops below scoring,

Don't you score to the last man now?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:59 pm

haha, funny how my wording stayed "4th Ed".

But yea that is what i meant. He didnt knock any units out, he unintentionally (perhaps thinking like he did back in 4th) that he was somewhat ok knocking them below half, then moving on to other units. Perhaps he figured he would get back to them later.

The slightly random game length will shake things up a lot too!

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
methoderik
Neophyte


Posts : 85
Join date : 2008-05-14
Location : Loveland

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:10 pm

I have read a few 5th Battle Reports now, and in most, the players forgot that you score to the last troop model.

You think the wound/save allocation thing is going to give my Crisis teams fits?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:23 pm

I think any small team with different load outs will be effected.

It's going to be harder to keep certain models alive than in 4th, but it's not the end of the world. Redundancy just becomes more important than it was in 4th.

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Warmonger
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-06-06
Location : The churning fields of Clark county

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:03 pm

I just finished reading my copy last night and all I can say is what a Major Disappointment! Rolling Eyes Mad Sad Shocked
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:42 pm

why is that 'monger?

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:46 pm

Ahhh . Matt beat me to it.

Yes yes.... Any declaration of "disappointment" (or support for that matter) needs to be supported with Why. This increases the quality of the content on the boards..
Back to top Go down
kainthedragoonx
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 658
Join date : 2008-04-15
Age : 35
Location : Art of War Gaming and Miniatures!

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:25 pm

yeah, agree with Matt and John. I think 5th ed is awesome. Really, I like everything they did....
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.aowcinci.com
Warmonger
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-06-06
Location : The churning fields of Clark county

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:33 pm

Ok, so you want some insight into what is going on in my head affraid well just remember you asked for it Smile . Let me first clarify that I don't hate the 5 edition and I'm not going to stop playing it's just that I didn't get that "Ah thats to cool feeling" like I did with apocolypse so I was disappointed, but for those of you who want alittle more here it goes.
Let me mention a couple of the things I liked first: personally I think the book is the best written, concise and organized(page ref. #'s, ect.) that they have produced, thats coming from 20 years of playing games- workshop games. The next several examples good and bad bear in mind that these opinions are based on the fact that games-workshop has always talked about trying to keep things as realistic as possible in terms of rules and mechanics without effecting the flow of the game. Something I have really liked about thier game systems. With that in mind; example 1, The tank ramming rule is great(how practical or frequent it will be used is un-determind) but it is realistic and adds something to the game, example 2, The run rule...probably the best rule in along time,realistic and adds something much more to the game.
Now for the real answers you have been waiting for. First off the new LOS rule is ok not that different then it is now until you combine it with the new terrain and wound allocation rules. Being able to see thru large sections of woods & jungle, ect as along as you can draw a LOS thru the individual trees is silly, think about it, how far can you really see in a woods, not that far. To make a woods or such realistic now would require so much stuff (trees,flocking,ect.) it would hinder movement ( there is enough problems moving models thru custom scenery as it is ),and with wound allocation think about this: My unit of marines are shooting at your unit behind a wall because they can see one of your models head. They shoot with their sniper-bolters killing him and a couple of his comrades that can't be seen from the ricocheting or penetrating bullets,maybe? but does it really add realism to the game, might have stuck with wound what you can see also.
Cover saves, whats up with cover saves. There is a cover save for everything, it's like over compensation for all the increased shooting that is possible. I swear I saw something in the book that gives you a cover save if your opponent looks at you cross eyed Rolling Eyes. Last one, consolidation, You finally weather the storm of fire to get to assualt and wipe out your opponent only to mill around and be shot at again instead of assualting the enemy standing beside you "Oh come on" that rule takes away an aspect of the game.
So there you have it, some of things that disappointed me, some of the things I liked. I'm not going to rant and rave about it thats just not my style, it is what it is after all it is just a game.
As with all things sometimes things aren't as bad as they seem, we'll see after some games. If you feel the need to bash me for my opinion leave it at the door, right or wrong it just my first impression after reading the rules. Smile
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:59 pm

As a slight counter-argument (I'm a fan of discussion on the boards Wink)

I don't think it's too big of a deal that more than can be seen under TLOS can die. Just think of any movie when a group of soldiers move around a corner only to be shot at, many will normally die before they get back. I imagine units not standing exactly where they are model wise, but moving around constantly. So the few extra being killed may have been shot through the wall or as they moved around the corner. I think you can argue the realism either way.

I would also argue that consolidation into other units didn't happen that much amongst good players anyway, so getting rid of it isn't the end of the world.

I think you bring up a good point with the sheer number of cover saves on offer now, it will take a while getting used to (after playing a few games).

Anyone else with an opinion on these things?

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Post Your Thoughts on 5th...   Today at 9:30 am

Back to top Go down
 
Post Your Thoughts on 5th...
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Thoughts on Difficulty
» Grade 12s who are going on to play post-secondary, AAA/AA/A
» Thoughts on Blood Angels list.
» Last Post Wins
» 1500 Points Purifier List! Thoughts

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
CAG :: Warhammer 40k :: 40k General Discussion-
Jump to: