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 Grey Knight Force Weapons?

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JTPitt
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PostSubject: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:46 pm

I remember a discussion from last week where normal space marine force weapons causes instant kill so it can not be used instantly kill a monstrous creature or any one that has the profile that saves them from instant kill.

Here's the question. I have to take all weapons and gear for Grey Knights from the Daemonhunters codex. It even clearly states that the gear you select is from the Daemonhunters armoury. The Nemesis Force weapon being wielded by a Chapter Master or Brother Captain Stern is considered a force weapon. Since we can only take the gear in the codex our force weapons read as such "Any wounds inflicted by the force weapon will require a psychgic test. The model that is wounded and the model wielding the Force weapon must role 2d6 and add their leadership. If the model who caused the wound has a higher leadership then it will kill the opponent out right."

The confusion here is that it does not cause instant death and does not state it as instant death. With it killing the opponent out right, does that mean that I can walk up to anyone and kill them out right with one hit since it is not instant death?


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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:48 pm

Jon......see if you can find the Updated FAQ....there was something in there about this. What it is.....the Force weapon is used as a Psychic type test. Only stern or a grandmaster has the ability to do this.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:03 pm

Thats what I was sayin is that it is a psychic test. My bad I will edit it to say psychic test.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:00 pm

You can kill Monstrous Creatures with force weapons. What you can't kill in units with the USR Eternal Warrior.

Your "Nemesis Force Weapon" rule will still follow the rule for normal force weapons with the bonus of being +2 to strength. In the Force Weapon rule (p.50) it states, "This power has no effect against vehicles, models that are immune to instant death and any other model that does not have a Wounds value"

Your rule actually states Codex:DH (pg17) that as long as at least one wound has been inflicted make a Psychic test for the psyker against one opponent wounded by the weapon...If the test is passed then the opponent is slain outright, no matter how many wounds it has.

Your weapon does cause instant death, but unlike a Krak Missile into a Space Marine it requires you to make a Psychic test to activate it. I looked at both the Grandmaster Rules and BC Stern.

Not sure where you got your 2d6 add leadership rules, but I just skimmed the Codex, post a page so I can read on where you got that.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:30 pm

Isn't it different from instant death? As it doesnt actual say 'instant death' in the DH codex (like it didnt used to for marines before their update too?)

No book on hand to check though Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:48 pm

It kills them outright it does not cause instant death Chad. I looked at the errata and FAQ and it does not change the wording of the GK force weapons. The kill opponents out right. Anyone including Eternal Guard are killed out right. The problem is we can only take GK specific equipment. If I take a Storm Shield I only get 4+ invulnerable save in close combat not 3+. Same with our Force weapons. We can kill outright but we do not do it causing instant death.

As for killing monstrous creatures with regular SM force weapons they state that after passing the pyschic check that it does cause instant death not that it kills them out right and you can't kill monstrous creatures with instant death items.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:37 pm

They changed it in 5th edition, It used to cause Pesdo-instant death meaning it could get around the immune to instant death rule, that was fixed in 5th. It's on page 50 of the rulebook. 4th ed they were terrors to nids, but they got toned down. It is balanced by the fact that rending and powerfists got toned down too.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:52 pm

Sexiest_hero wrote:
They changed it in 5th edition, It used to cause Pesdo-instant death meaning it could get around the immune to instant death rule, that was fixed in 5th. It's on page 50 of the rulebook. 4th ed they were terrors to nids, but they got toned down. It is balanced by the fact that rending and powerfists got toned down too.

Heres the problem though. Grey Knights do not use regular force weapons nor do they use regular SM weapons. They have their own armoury outside of everyone elses. Just like the storm shield example I gave earlier. Also in the FAQ and errata they made changes to some items like the hellgun. There however were no changes to the Grey Knights equipment.

Also by direct wording the Force weapon does not cause instant death it kills the creature out right.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:07 pm

this isn't official by any means, but they discuss this very issue in the first post here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=150103

Quote :
* DH Force Weapons cause opponents to be “slain outright.” In the BBB Force Weapons can cause Instant Death, which Eternal Warrior prevents. A RAW interpretation is that DH Force Weapons ignore the Eternal Warrior rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:09 pm

Are you wanting to kill USR Eternal Warrior outright? Not happening..

You can have the 3++ Shield Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Marc wrote:
Are you wanting to kill USR Eternal Warrior outright? Not happening..

You can have the 3++ Shield Wink

Actually we can't have the 3+ shield we can only take Daemonhunter Wargear. We don't take SM wargear.

For the Eternal Warriors it would kill them out right as well. Unless they say that can't be outright killed by anything then they too can be taken out by a Grey Knight Master or Brother Sterns Force weapon.

Remember it kills them out right it does not cause instant death.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:26 pm

Yeah well I guess you are right on the ID rule, but in the normal reality that isnt GW's warped reality that instant and out right are the same thing...but if it is RAW then I guess more broken rules from GW. They really need to fix all these different wargear problems.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:32 pm

Considering Grey Knights don't have a lot of heavy hitting weapons I would say it balances them out a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:16 pm

Yeah, they need balancing cause most marines can move, shoot 24" and are Str6 in h-t-h and also basically use night fighting rules to get shot at. Yeah balancing is probably not the word I would use. You are right you are short a Lascannon and Missile Launchers unless of course you use a Dread or a Landraider, but then hey we cant have it all.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:23 pm

What if someone tried to pull that on you? Lets be objective here..

In the end its just a Grey Knight I suppose Wink I'm sure Sean will settle things out with a CAG FAQ
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Chad wrote:
Yeah, they need balancing cause most marines can move, shoot 24" and are Str6 in h-t-h and also basically use night fighting rules to get shot at. Yeah balancing is probably not the word I would use. You are right you are short a Lascannon and Missile Launchers unless of course you use a Dread or a Landraider, but then hey we cant have it all.

Ok and most space marines cost 25 points a model right. I think the cost of our units and how few we have in our lists kinda makes it balanced. Its not like everyone of our guys has the force weapon. They are the Emperors finest of course they should be stronger....they fight Demons for a living.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:32 pm

Sexiest Hero is right, this did get fixed on the page he mentioned.

Knew i'd seen a fix somewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:07 pm

It's a tricky situation. I'll try to explain why it works like that. Wargear gets carried over from the old codexs But Noot Universal rules and stuff like that. IE Some old codexs mention tuboboosting 24". We all know that trobo bosting has been reduced to 18". You follow codex rules for things not covered, IE the land raider in the Space wolf codex carries 10 while the newer carries 12. In this case if you play the SW your land raider is gimped. If the rulebook saied " All land raiders can carry 12. Then It would be an Universal rule and there fore would apply. In another case the Tyranid codex says that rend with 2d6, the rule book says d3 ap2. Since It's a universal rule it overides the codex. Same with assault cannons and the way plamaguns work. They may use the old wording in older codexs. And yes it makes certain things useless, Like the emeror's Tarot, Simbiot rippers and half the dark eldar armory. I hope this helped.

Grey knights need an update, bad Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:30 am

I call shennannigans. JT is right.

I have the rulebook, the codex, the FAQ and teh intarnetz in front of me. Grey Knights use the force weapons from their codex, just like Dark Angels use the Storm Shields from their codex. It's as simple as that.

4th edition force weapons could insta-kill eternal warriors. 5th edition force weapons cannot --But the Grey Knights still use 4th edition force weapons.

The eternal warrior rule still specifies "instant death" as did its 4th edition counterparts (mark of the chaos ascendant pg46 Chaos Space Marines, tyranids are just awesome ftw pg 28 Tyranids 2nd bullet).

The instant death rule in the main rulebook (pg 26) also makes no mention of force weapons.

I have never seen an instance in which a codex is actually overruled by the main rulebook. GW states often and clearly that the rules in the codex take precedence.

In the examples given by sexiest_hero the codex is not overruled by the main rulebook.

Rending IS different now for tyranids, but that's because the tyranid codex doesn't have rules for rending. It just points to the main rulebook.

Assault cannons and plasma guns are the same way. No rules are given in the codex. It just refers to the main rulebook (Dark Angels, 48, 51; Imperial Guard, 63; Blood Angels, 26).

Codex Daemonhunters actually has a unique wargear entry (and I stress wargear because it
Quote :
gets carried over from the old codexs
) which gives rules for Force Weapons which are not the same as the rules in the main rulebook.

It may be stupid, but RAW states that Grey Knights have better force weapons.

P.S. Turbo boost is still 24" (pg 76 main rules).
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:40 am

Mike hit the nail on the head. The book states with every unit that they must use the Daemonhunter Armoury and not the basic SM armoury.

Like I stated earlier and like Mike stated I have to use the old version of Storm Shields. I pay 25 points for basic GK units. I don't think it is too much to ask to have one guy in my army who has fought thousands of demons and much worse horrors then a Hive Tyrant, be able to take out a creature such as a hive tyrant in one fell swoop or anything else.

Look at it with some common sense. All Grey Knights are good psykers, heck it even goes as far as to say that they are stronger psykers then regular SM Librarians. So of course having a weapon tuned perfectly to your psychic abilities would make it possible to take larger and harder opponents.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:32 am

Looked it up and seems the majority of people agree with you guys, So I'll be the first one to say I was wrong. In my search I stumbled On this list that should be helpful to you.


The List of Daemonhunter Codex Rules Gotchas
The purpose of this list is to point out some significant and not so significant variations between rules in Codex: Daemonhunters (DH) and rules in the 5th Ed. Warhammer 40k Rule Book (BBB) and other “modern” codexes, especially Codex: Space Marines (SM) and Codex: Imperial Guard (IG). In the current climate of “Codex trumps BBB” many rules, units, and equipment vary between codexes—sometimes drastically. This list is intended merely as an aid for DH players so that they are prepared to point out such differences before gameplay. Note that in some instances the DH rule would be considered a boon and in other cases a bane.

Codex Trumps Rulebook
GW has made it (mostly) clear that unless a codex's FAQ says otherwise, we should use the rules in our codex. The first statements from GW about this appear in the BBB on p. 62: "As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence." and also on p. 289 concerning army lists: "in the event of any contradiction between this section and any of the individual codexes, the codexes always take precedence."

The comment about dedicated transports in the BBB Oct, 2008 FAQ p. 4 also states that rules in a codex should be followed: "... if a Codex clearly says that dedicated transports can only be used during the game by the unit that bought them, that overrules the general rule in the rulebook, as normal. "

These statements all imply that the rules in a codex are the standard ruleset for its army.

Grey Knight Special Rules

The following clarifications result directly from the current 40K 5th Edition FAQ, which states that references to rules or conditions that no longer exist or are applicable in 5th edition should be totally ignored.

* Rites of Exorcism: References to daemonic instability and instability tests should be ignored except where Daemonic Adversaries as provided in the DH Codex are concerned. Daemons in other codexes no longer take instability tests.
* Rites of Exorcism: Because daemons assaulting Grey Knights units are required to take a difficult terrain test when assaulting, they will fight at Initiative 1 in the first round of close combat (unless they have assault grenades -- like frag grenades -- or their equivalent).
* Daemonic Infestation: This rule no longer has any application because the Sustained Attack special scenario rule no longer exists. Sustained Attack was a scenario rule in the 4th edition BRB.

Retinues
A GK Hero, Inquisitor Lord, or Inquisitor is not an Independent Character as long as he has a surviving Retinue, which he cannot leave. This means that he functions as an upgrade member of a unit and cannot be singled out in close combat. Some (newer) codexes do not use Retinues. Characters in those codexes follow IC rules for close combat.

Orbital Strikes
(In)accuracy for Orbital Strikes works as described in Codex: DH. The rules for (In)accuracy of Orbital Strikes in Codex: Witch Hunters are FAQ’d to follow the scatter rules described in the BBB.

Dedicated Transports
Transports bought for a unit may not be used by any other unit. They are truly “dedicated.” This is not the case for transports in many other codexes.

Land Raiders
* Land Raider Crusaders may fire their Hurricane Bolters regardless of how far they move. This means a LRC, with POTMS, can normally fire all but one of its standard weapons even after moving 12”. This rule does not exist in the SM Codex.
* Grey Knight Land Raiders carry fewer models than their SM counterparts. The GK LR can carry 10 and the GK LRC can carry 15 (8 terminators). The SM LR can carry 12 and the SM LRC can hold 16.
* Land Raiders taken as transports by Inquisitors do not benefit from the Power of the Machine Spirit (PotMS) special rule.

Rhinos
* Only one model may fire from a Rhino’s single fire point. SM Rhinos allow two passengers to fire.
* A DH Rhino does not have the Repair special rule. The WH Rhino and SM Rhino do. (F)
* If someone fires from a Rhino and any passenger has armor of 4+ or worse the Rhino is counted as open-topped. This rule no longer exists in the SM codex.

Chimeras
* A DH Chimera is not described as having the six hull-mounted lasguns that the IG Chimera has. This is despite the presence of the lasguns on the GW plastic kit.
* A DH Chimera does not have the option of choosing a pintle-mounted heavy stubber.
* A DH Chimera has two fire points. An IG Chimera has one fire point.
* A DH Chimera is not described as amphibious. The IG Chimera is.

Vehicle Armory
* Smoke Launchers reduce all penetrating hits to glancing hits. BBB Smoke Launchers grant 4+ cover saves.
* The Assault Cannon mounted on either a GK LRC or GK Dreadnought is Heavy 3.

Weapons and Wargear
* DH Force Weapons cause opponents to be “slain outright.” In the BBB Force Weapons can cause Instant Death, which Eternal Warrior prevents. A RAW interpretation is that DH Force Weapons ignore the Eternal Warrior rule.
* DH Psychic Hoods have unlimited range. The SM Psychic Hood is limited to 24”.
* DH Storm Shields grant only a 4+ invulnerable save and may only be used in assaults and against only one opponent. RAW, this means the SS save may only be used against wounds generated from a single model during CC. SM Storm Shields grant a 3+ nonspecific invulnerable save.
* A DH Storm Shield counts as an extra CCW even though it is not considered a weapon (DH p. 16). It might therefore grant an additional attack. However, the rules concerning THs in the BBB p. 42 explicitly state that a model must have two THs to gain a bonus attack. While the SS counts as a CCW, it is not a TH and thus does not grant a bonus attack. A SM Storm Shield does not grant a bonus attack.
* A DH Thunder Hammer causes a model wounded by it to be unable to attack until the end of the next assault phase (effectively slowing them to “Initiative 0” in the next phase). This allows the possibility that a model struck round after round would never again be able to attack. The SM Thunderhammer lowers the stricken model’s initiative to 1. In the next phase each model would then strike simultaneously at Initiative 1.
* A DH Thunder Hammer causes a bonus 'crew shaken' result when it hits a vehicle. A SM TH must hit and then glance or penetrate to cause the bonus 'crew shaken' result.
* Bionics in the DH Codex grant a 1 in 6 chance that a model killed will return to play in the next round with a single wound. In later codexes, bionics grant an additional save to be taken if a model fails its armor save except under certain conditions (melee attacks that do not allow saves and instant death attacks). Bionics was removed from SM Codex in the 2008 edition.
* DH Teleport Homers provide no benefit as written since the codex describes an old blast template rule for teleporting. The new version prevents scatter if the first teleporting model is placed within 6” of the homer.
* DH Digital Weapons grant an extra Initiative +2, Strength 4, hits on 4+ attack in close combat. SM digital weapons allow a re-roll of a failed roll to wound in close combat.

That leads me to this question, Why print rules in the Rule book, and not Udate the codex. The fact that DH Teleport homers and chimeras are gimped make no sense whatsoever, DH thunderhammers are Kick ass though.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:47 am

* DH Psychic Hoods have unlimited range. The SM Psychic Hood is limited to 24”.

The Blood Angel codex has the same discrepancy. Speaking of Blood Angels, how about a White Dwarf codex for Grey Knights? How hard could that be really?
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:05 am

About as hard as it is to come up with a simple codex for using undivided legions, or cult leigions outside of apocalyspe.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:55 am

I think that we can all agree now that Sexiest's post with all the rules clarification makes the most sense and was well thought out. Good find Sexiest. Does this help to squash the debate?
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Force Weapons?   Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:40 pm

Quote :
How hard could that be really?

harder than we think I'm sure.

GK get to keep good force weapons for now! About time something went in their favor.

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