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altahara
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PostSubject: odd question...   Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:50 pm

ok so heres the deal.. ive done this twice and.. well RAW says i can,... RAI says im a douche for doing it... rofl..

My Raider moves on the board sideways, sicne it can move up and pivot on the spot 24" as is its move...



then it turns on the spot, moves forweard 6", or 12" but i chose 6 in this example. then fires everything or disgorges everyone to charge..



am i correct in thinking i CAN but shouldnt do this?
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:28 pm

I'm not quit sure of your question. Are you doing all of this in one turn? If not I see nothing wrong. Raiders have long hulls so turing it one way or another will give you a few inches of deployment to work with. What are people saying you are doing wrong?
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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:57 pm

the question really is"in one turn can i move on to the board in DOW or from Reserves etc and be sideways." that way when the next movement phase comes around i can turn, get the extra movement then move 6 or 12 and then be that much closer..
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:39 am

No you cant, but if you tried your right you would be a douche for doing it that way.

I know you don't know me very well, but I have always been pretty strait forward person I feel that there is no reason to beat around the bush. Let me give you a little advice your name is thrown around a lot as a bullshit player who does shady stuff. Whether you are right or wrong in what you do is not as important as the intent on how you are trying to get away with it. Some people and I wont mention names for those people sake, but I will raise my hand, will not play you or those who do do so because they feel sorry for you or they have no one else to play.

This is a community of players most pretty new and for you to try to take advantage of every little rules flaw really is a bunch of bullshit. I have watch at least 5 of your games where you pulled some shady tactics even on new player just so you can say you won. I mean really hurray for you. If you want to make friends other than the one or two who actually post to your stupid ass rules questions try playing with a little more class instead of for the win. If you do play in the tournament and we get matched up you can have the win I would rather have a loss than a win playing against you.

I may have hurt your feeling really don't care because most people are to nice to say it out loud what they say behind your back. Don't get me wrong it's not that you are not liked as a person, you are. Its just the way I have seen you play 40k just makes you look bad.

Now back on topic: Unless you have some writing in your codex that allows you to ignore facing while moving you will need to move on from the long board edge facing forward which would put the nose of your craft 24" from your edge not the middle like your pictures show. After you are finished moving you may pivot on the spot in doing that you will not be any closer than you should be. On any turn after that you can again pivot then move or any combination of. I did skim the Dark Eldar codex and didn't see anywhere your skimmers can move sideways at full speed. Like I said to start this post off if you do play like that your just being a dick.

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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:28 am

Oh, OK I see what you are getting at. Na, I'm not quit sure that would be ok. I (think) a model on a base, like a skimmer can never move mort than it's allotted movent. No matter how you spin it around it can never end up more than it's movement.
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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:23 am

Anyone who has an issue with anything i do in a game, bring it up.. Most likely either ive played it that way due to a wrong interpretation of a rule... and never been called on it.. or im having a bad day...

If you wont talk tome about an issue and just want to talk behind my back.. well just means i am more mature and more of an adult than them.. Oh well, this game attracts adults and Children too..


Last edited by altahara on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:47 am

altahara, from your diagram, the second picture wouldn't be feasible. What I mean is, your max movement is 24", no matter what way you do the turning, ect. So, even if you twist and turn on the way, you can still only have moved 24" from your starting point. So, if you move, and your raider ends up 32" from where you started, you moved it too far. If you were to move it, and then turn it, the farthest the front of the raider can be from your starting point is the 24" mark. Think of it this way: A Raider's top speed is 42 Miles Per Hour, and it moves for one hour, it would have moved 42 miles, whether it was going sideways or forward. That max speed wouldn't be adjusted because you were twisting from side to side.

I'm pretty sure anyone you played against would be pretty upset if you tried this in the tourney. I'm sure that Sean or someone else who knows the rules better than I will correct me if I'm wrong, but the way the rules have always been explained to me by people who've been playing for a long time have said that if it says that you can move 24", it's absolute, unless there is some special rule that specifically says that their max range is lengthened (Like the red paint job for Orks gives an extra inch of movement). You mention RAW, but raw says it's max range is 24", right? If it says 24", that's as far as you're allowed moving.

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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:02 pm

bojesphob.. I wasnt asking if i could move more than my 24 in one turn... it was amulti turn question.. turn one: move on the board 24" but be sideways so the furthest point was the side of the raider.. then turn 2: pivot the raider so the furthest point is my prow, and then move 12" and disembark..
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:41 pm

wow......I lose alot and even know you can't do that. It goes against the rules of physics.......
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:34 pm

Exploiting cheese and ambiguity kicks ass, doesn't it? You sure you want a new DE codex? Then you wouldn't be able to be a huge douche. Maybe we should start bitching because you don't actually have all the Raider models.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:51 pm

Shocked
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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:07 pm

This is getting ridiculous... Im done asking questions... im just going to go by what it says i can and cant do in the rulebook... and if someone has an issue they can raise it to me when they have it... Or if its Chad or i guess Witt to...? then they can just be annoyed that im a cheesy a$$hole player and forfeit..
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:45 pm

Wow this is a nice heated argument. While I dont think I have ever played you, I will not attack you. An attempt to pull this is absolute cheese even if it was legal. However an easy solution (which is legal) is....I would make you nominate a point on your model that you are measuring from FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. Then regardless of which way it faces you dont get any additional inches. Its similar with guess weapons in Fantasy. You COULD measure from the front or the back of a cannon per se...but thats not right.. I always tell my opponent up front that I will be measuring from the barrel opening of my cannon, and while i extend the tape measure I dont even look up from my cannon....that way it does not appear I am altering distance.
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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:51 pm

it is a heated argument.. but not about the rule i asked about.. apparently im an a$$hole cheesey gamer.. who wants to win.. and i guess winning is looked down on by some people... meh..

As far as the rule.. its just loke those people who move a rhino 6 inches but pivot it in the middle of the move.. so the rhino door is 6 inches from where the fron of the tank was.. Noone has ever called them on that.. and it is Exactly the same concept.. except the rhino is on tracks and the Raider is a skimmer.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:33 pm

and I would call them on the same thing...pick a point to measure from and thats it however you want to face is fine....but your furthermost model part will not be past your designated ending point. Thats how I would handle it anyway...keeps the game fair and friendly...everything is agreed to up front.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:15 pm

This is were I think a 90 degree turn or even half should be considered an inch move. You usually have a 90 degree arc of fire anyway unless it's a turret that can move 360. Yeah, I'd call the extra pivot move out to as well.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:52 pm

im not getting into the middle of things with the argument. but althara, you did swear up and down that GW had send you a message about your raider moving and ALL of your troops shooting out of the top. yes you did have the letter printed out, but then you had told me that they had sent you another letter explaining that they had told you the wrong thing. and we didnt hear or see you for a few months. i do believe that there are times where you can be a cheesy a$$hole player...but you know the rules..you just need to play them the way you think and if someone tells you otherwise then you shouldnt swear up and down the totem pole that your way is right just because it helps you. just play fair. everyone i've played and watched do that. i have just learned a lot from reading the forums and going with wolfman to acme and such to learn more about it, cuz i know that the rules are confusing and shady to begin with. so there. i said my peace=)
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:26 am

No the rule is you MOVE then PIVOT. At no point should your vehicle be any farther forward than the nose or front is. I have never seen anyone in a rhino do it, I have seen them move forward then rotate to have the back doors available, but again this should not leave you any closer than before the pivot.

And as a side note it is pretty clear by the responses you are getting that you are a cheesy gamer who likes to read the rules in their favor. Dont get salty because you are getting called to the table. If you had made a mistake once or twice it OK people mess up, but you are intentional with it knowing full well that you cant move a skimmer sideways, and you are a veteran enough player that if you do think that you are just a dumb ass. Like I said in my last post as a person I dont mind you as a gamer you are one of the worst, not because of the way you play but because your a ass hat when you do.

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altahara
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:58 am

*Sigh* Ok so i over reacted to your post.. I have had a shitty week and have been dealing with some emotional things... that well.. made me just jump on you because i took it the wrong way...
yes i make mistakes.. Yes i know i do.. and when called on them i re read the rules and try and find out WHY i thought i could.. and when i find out im screwing up i stop doing it that way and apologize for doing it that way. and yes, onlykenya, that was the ruling from him and yes he retracted it.. The only reason i played it that way, and the only reason i got all of the models i had from ebay was because he said yes..and i stopped showing up for many reasons... mainly the person i rode with was being scheduled that day... and i went for a few days where only one person would show up or noone would.. etc..

As far as me being Cheesy.. well i do my best to read the rules and interpret them in the exact way they are written.. I do not sit there and go "How can i exploit this to my advantage alone" there are many time when i will be sitting there with LupusGhost and we will just throw ideas back and forth till one of us goes.."Wow you could do this" And please if im being cheesey in a game.. Please call me on it.. if i dont know you guys think its wrong then most likely i think its the way its done and will continue till someone say s something..
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:36 am

It's this kind of shit that keeps me from playing in big tournaments and keeps me selective about who I play with locally. I play the game as an escape and to have fun. Winning is great...but it isn't paramount to my enjoyment of the game. It's why I have so much fun when I play with Keith...we both like to win, but we're not going to exploit anything, nor are we going to bicker about miniscule ambiguities in the rules.

It's a freakin game, and it's not worth my time and the sacrafice to my enjoyment to go all nuts up over a rule so that I can win.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:53 am

Altahara, hopefully I didn't come across as combative in my post... I haven't played against you yet (or have I? You must not be too cheesy if I have, cause I don't remember), and I don't know your play style.

I don't think I followed your question, so chalk up my response to that. You mention that you want to do a pivot in your second turn and move 12"? It still seems like your starting point was where the side of your raider ended up in turn 1, whether it be sideways or facing forward, and that your max movement would then be measured from that spot, so you could only move a total of 12" from that original spot if you want to shoot and disgorge your troops. If you do pivot, and move the prow forward, you are then... whatever length you move the prow over the original spot that you started off from. So, basically, in your example, you could not be more than 36" from your original turn 1 starting point (24" + 12"), pivot or no pivot. My analogy with the top speed still applies in this example as well.

Again, I'm not trying to call you out here, as a few others seem like they might be, I'm just trying to answer your question.

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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:04 am

wittdooley wrote:
It's this kind of shit that keeps me from playing in big tournaments and keeps me selective about who I play with locally. I play the game as an escape and to have fun. Winning is great...but it isn't paramount to my enjoyment of the game. It's why I have so much fun when I play with Keith...we both like to win, but we're not going to exploit anything, nor are we going to bicker about miniscule ambiguities in the rules.

It's a freakin game, and it's not worth my time and the sacrafice to my enjoyment to go all nuts up over a rule so that I can win.


AMEN brother! And people want to know why I hav't prepaid for the tourny yet.......
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:59 am

Quote :
And please if im being cheesey in a game.. Please call me on it.. if i dont know you guys think its wrong then most likely i think its the way its done and will continue till someone say s something..

See this is hard for a lot of people. They figure if a guy would put these type of things in play then they aren't worth the arguement it will cause over the table.

Guys like Chad (or even me) are more likely to say let's open the rulebook and logic check. Or even... "we disagree" let's roll for it (in a timed setting)>

I ran a tournament last year at Gen Con w/ 16 guys. 1 of which was a known in our group as a power gamer with the worst sort of interpretation. ie. he'd argue both sides of an interpretation depending on the game and situation he was in.

Eventually the first guy who played him withdrew from the tournament. When he was drawn for everyone else they pulled too. So it was miserable.

The guy was awful to play. Everything... I mean everthing was a fight over his interpretation of the rule. He'd win a lot of games b/c people just got sick of arguing with him and let gave up most of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:13 pm

The rules for all the vehicles are simple. You move with the front of your vehicle as the reference point. You move your vehicle up or back words. If any point of the vehicle puts it over the allowed distance then you have measured or moved to much.

Another words if I move a rhino the full 12" on to the boards edge I could never have a part of the rhino extending past the 12". Even if I spin it, none of the edges would never be past that point and thats how it should be.
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PostSubject: Re: odd question...   Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:24 pm

Again sorry guys if i 'flew off the handle' when i replied to your posts.. i took them all the wrong way.. Chad, i think you should have brought that to me in private.. but oh well.. more people chimed in so.. i guess i really do need to work on stuff,... Again, even if you just say thats not how i read it lets dice off... ill write it down, and look it up later tosee why i thought it.. I wont argue the point in the store.. Ok guys? And please no pity games.. If you dont wanna play me just say i dont wanna play you..
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