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 New guard list of cheese (1500pt)

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archite666
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PostSubject: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:18 am

Ok after play testing I have revised my list and I think it is now ok for public viewing. Make sure to read the bottem before posting. Thanks!



CCS x5 (7)
- x4 meltas
- officer of the fleet
- astropath
- melta bomb or krak
- chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 210


Psyker battle squad x10
- Chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 165


Psyker battle squad x10
- Chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 165


Veterans x10
- x3 plasma
- Chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 170

Veterans x10
- x3 plasma
- Chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 170

Veterans x10
- x3 melta
- chimera
- Multi laser
- heavy flamer 155



Vendetta gunship 130

Vendetta gunship 130

Leman Russ Executioner
- lascannon
205


1500pt on the dot.

Ok so naturally I still have ideas rolling around in my head. The most obvious would be to axe the second PBS giving me 165 pts, could also axe the LC and krak giving me a total of 185 pts. Which would buy another vet squad mounted in the CCS's chim. Put the CCS in the detta and probably add plasma sponsons to the executioner. Could also throw a inquisitor with mystics if I had to be cheesy but really I don't even think that is legal ( at least in my eyes)

Ok what do you got?
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:20 am

I think the list is solid. I don't see the cheese in the list itself.

Too many players think if you have a tight list then you're bringing cheese. Don't be fooled or persuaded to bring a light list. If it's legal in your 'dex, then it's legal on the table.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:36 am

Do you play 1500 pts a lot? Just curious Smile

I would say if you do take an Inquisitor, the build out that I found to be EXTREMELY fun in CC is Inquisitor Lord, Termie armor, Psychic hood, Storm Shield, Power Weapon (force weapon if you have the points for 25 pts more), 2 Acolytes (for two ablative wounds) and two Mystics (which gives you the ability to give a model within 12" a free shot at Daemons or deep striking units). All that for about 138 points (I think that's what it was, you'd have to check to make sure). But, for that, you get a guy with a 2+ armor save, 4+ invuln save in CC, a bunch of wounds (5, I think, though don't have the dex on me, so not 100% sure), a bunch of attacks, high initiative, and powerful attacks (especially if you take a Force Weapon). I used this in the tourney with my normal guardsmen and he cleaned up when I got him into CC. He beat out a unit of Space Wolves space marines, and held his own with a unit of Eldar with a Farseer (I think that's what it was), which was I think 10 guys strong to begin with! The only game he didn't do well was against the necrons, and that was only because I didn't hide him well enough in cover and he got shot to pieces right off the bat.


Anyhow, you can take an Inquisitor as an ally, and it's not cheese. I think, in the case above, it gives some good close combat skill that would otherwise be missing in a Guard army!

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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:07 am

Tis is the Chimera list thats been going around, it's really solid but not cheese. In the end it's just 12 armor tanks rolling around. It will do above average.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:51 pm

Is there a specific definition of "cheese", or is that just thrown around by the loser when someone with a good list kicks butt?
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:10 pm

CaelynTek wrote:
Is there a specific definition of "cheese", or is that just thrown around by the loser when someone with a good list kicks butt?

You got it.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:18 pm

CaelynTek wrote:
Is there a specific definition of "cheese", or is that just thrown around by the loser when someone with a good list kicks butt?

That's exactly it. Or if any list does extremely well on the tourney circuit, it seems to get classified as "cheese" on the forums.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:12 pm

HAND OF DUME wrote:
CaelynTek wrote:
Is there a specific definition of "cheese", or is that just thrown around by the loser when someone with a good list kicks butt?

That's exactly it. Or if any list does extremely well on the tourney circuit, it seems to get classified as "cheese" on the forums.

I guess then that someone calling your list cheese is a compliment then right? Smile

I will endeavor to make my list as cheesy as possible, maybe even nacho cheese.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:59 pm

Go with Limburger for true stinkiness. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:45 pm

A cheddar list makes your opponent work for a win instead of it being a gimme. There are players who like to test their own lists against these kinds of armies.
Bring a list that's not so heavy for the more fluffy player. Not everyone likes an iron list.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:35 pm

bojesphob1 wrote:
Do you play 1500 pts a lot? Just curious Smile

I would say if you do take an Inquisitor, the build out that I found to be EXTREMELY fun in CC is Inquisitor Lord, Termie armor, Psychic hood, Storm Shield, Power Weapon (force weapon if you have the points for 25 pts more), 2 Acolytes (for two ablative wounds) and two Mystics (which gives you the ability to give a model within 12" a free shot at Daemons or deep striking units). All that for about 138 points (I think that's what it was, you'd have to check to make sure). But, for that, you get a guy with a 2+ armor save, 4+ invuln save in CC, a bunch of wounds (5, I think, though don't have the dex on me, so not 100% sure), a bunch of attacks, high initiative, and powerful attacks (especially if you take a Force Weapon). I used this in the tourney with my normal guardsmen and he cleaned up when I got him into CC. He beat out a unit of Space Wolves space marines, and held his own with a unit of Eldar with a Farseer (I think that's what it was), which was I think 10 guys strong to begin with! The only game he didn't do well was against the necrons, and that was only because I didn't hide him well enough in cover and he got shot to pieces right off the bat.


Anyhow, you can take an Inquisitor as an ally, and it's not cheese. I think, in the case above, it gives some good close combat skill that would otherwise be missing in a Guard army!

Yeah or.... I could pay 32 pts for the ability to shoot at DS which is what I want.

But that does seem very cheap, if CC is what I wanted.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:35 pm

And FYI

Two PBS are often cosidered cheese.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:39 pm

I beg too differ on this subject. Cheese simply a list tailored to destroy an Player and leave little or no hope of winning.

For instance if you know your opponet's list before hand, you can pretty much make a list against him that makes the game pretty much unwinnable and not fun. (I.E taking the santuary power because you know your buddy is going to play daemons, thus making you invincible)

Secondly taking a list like Nob bikers against a new player with two boxs of Black reach marines is the very face of cheese, I would be like giving somebody a basket ball and sending them out to play an NBA all star.

In a turney all beats are off of course, and I've been playing long enough to counter every powerful list out there, But I always enjoy games where I get beat by a good player over games where I see a point and click army.


It's a choice you have to make, do you want to rely on a list to win, or can you put a golf handicap on yourself, not follow the crowd and leave with the fact that your list had nothing to do that butt whooping you put out.

When you bring a powerful list like Nob biker or lash spam, they game goes from friendly to cut-throat, you won't get any whine to go with your cheese from me, but as a 14 year vet I will use every LEGAL rule and trick I can to win. I hate playing that way because I'm a really nice guy, but I've had to put one one Slannesh prince to many

(Just my thoughts, not aimed at anybody!)
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:04 pm

Do you make a list to lose? No, you make one to win.

More often than not, you will play an opponent whose list you don't know like the back of your hand. And if you do, this person will also know what you are bringing to the table and thus should prepare for it.

If you play a noob, then cut them some slack, but if it's a vet player, they should expect none (slack).

Sexiest wrote:
"I will use every LEGAL rule and trick I can to win"

You always should, this is a givin', even in a friendly game. I've been playing Warhammer for almost 20 years and I don't even give one of my gaming buddies any slack and they don't give me any (right Warmonger) when we play. No one should, you play to have fun (1# rule), but you also play to win. Who makes a list only to think, "I'll go play today and hopefully lose with this list". Come on get real!
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:15 pm

I play at list that I like, or sometimes it's all the models I have. I don't have nob bikers, because I alreay had an Ork army same with my IG Chaos, Nids and Daemon hunters. Building a list for the sake of winning is self defeating. It's only a year or two, before a new codex comes out and renders your army almost useless (I'm looking at you, Castle Tau). A list is only the first part, tactics, player skill, judgement all pay a bigger factor.
Not playing an optimised list, is in no way playing to lose, , I simply don't want an easy win. And I won't replace all 5 of my armies whenever GW needs to sell new models.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:48 pm

Just because a player plays an optimal list, doesn't guarentee a win or even an easy one. There are tactics to take out such lists; dual lash, nob bikers, LR spam. And with many players preparing for these lists, it takes a little more strategy and tactica to run one than you make it to be. Those who choose to bring these lists should not be crucified for building them. There is no "gimme" list in 40k. All lists have their weakness, for example lash lists don't work well against mech lists.

No one said you have to sell your armies, but if you're not willing to evolve with the game, then don't complain when you're left behind.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:56 pm

I agree with Dume.

Everyone builds a list to win. If you don't I envy the time you have to just allow others to beat you over and over.

People really blow out the "oh crap the new codex my army is useless thing." We all know some models become obsolete but at the end of the day it's never really THAT bad.

I'd associate cheese with just the general consensus on what is good in the competitive scene and peoples need to label it. No biggy, and there is always a way around it.

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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:09 pm

War.

War never changes.


Ok less talk about the definition of cheese and more critique and ideas and tactics for my list.

I like the idea that the 4 man squad can hop out of the chim and either force rerolls on cover saves or twin link BS 4 meltas. Thats what I like. Also seeing as how you CAN twin link plasma, this gives me new ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:58 am

With leadership of 7 you can someimes ount of your oders not comming through when you need them. This list suffers from paper thin armour and low LD, mass anti-tank (what most people carry in spades these days) may be able to unload on your critical tanks before you can pull off the PBS or twin-link melta combo. Anything STR 6 and up can can rain the pain. Mystics are legal. Adding "list of cheese" to the title will always bring on talk about what, if anything, cheese is.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:23 am

Sexiest_hero wrote:
With leadership of 7 you can someimes ount of your oders not comming through when you need them. This list suffers from paper thin armour and low LD, mass anti-tank (what most people carry in spades these days) may be able to unload on your critical tanks before you can pull off the PBS or twin-link melta combo. Anything STR 6 and up can can rain the pain. Mystics are legal. Adding "list of cheese" to the title will always bring on talk about what, if anything, cheese is.

Ok when I asked for more opinions I ment GOOD ones.

The point is oversaturation of mobile targets. Yes I will lose some stuff. There are no critical tanks in this list. As for the dettas and exe, I don't plan to be stupid with them.

Some would argue that the "allies rules" in the demon hunters codex does not refer to this codex so at best you would be using these rules as "other than intended" To me this is border line illegal.

I say cheesy because, rather than use units I enjoy playing and enjoy modeling, I am playing with units that will make my list good. Truth be told I enjoy playing line guard and modeling all their fun choices and wargear. You will see this list in mechanised which is rather simple to play and simply to model.

So that is the meaning of "cheese" for myself. The line between playing with "whats fun" and "what wins"

Also no squad in this list has ld 7. Further, the only unit that can issue orders will be issuing them to itself and has ld 9. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:04 pm

Hand of Doom wrote:

" I've been playing Warhammer for almost 20 years and I don't even give one of my gaming buddies any slack and they don't give me any (right Warmonger) when we play."

I say:
No quarter asked...no quarter given,

But back to topic. Without knowing exactly what your tatic is for this list except "oversaturation of mobile targets" which doesn't really explain much, maybe a IG version of a rhino rush? I would drop the flamers on the PBS chimeras. I don't think you really want anything that close to them. I don't think you have enough long range heavy support, the Vendattas might be enough, but your mobility suffers to get max out of the las cannons making them an easier targets.

To hold an objective you need to use a vet squad but they have no range except for the multi laser so I'm not sure how they will really contribute. 185 points to sit on an objective and not much more? Just some things to think about.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:50 pm

HAND OF DUME wrote:
Do you make a list to lose? No, you make one to win.
Nobody makes list to lose. That doesn't mean they make a list to WIN. I resent that comment. You have likely never met me, yet you can make a blanket statement and lump me right on in there.

Once in my life did I make an army to SMASH a specific opponent and that was in a friendly campaign as a retaliatory action for a double-cross by him. Purely in fun. I build armies with a strong leaning towards background that I made up for my army. I make them as versatile as possible. I can go toe-to-toe with any army out there. I win some, I lose some. I almost always have a fun game.

Some douchebag wants to build a list SPECIFICALLY to beat me into next week? See ya around.


HAND OF DUME wrote:
Who makes a list only to think, "I'll go play today and hopefully lose with this list". Come on get real!
This is just a retarded comment. I give an Oscar nod for this melodramatic showing.



Who are you and where do you usually play 40k? Just wondering, so I can steer clear.



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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:22 pm

archite666 wrote:

Some would argue that the "allies rules" in the demon hunters codex does not refer to this codex so at best you would be using these rules as "other than intended" To me this is border line illegal.

It just says they can ally with Imperial Guard, something along the lines of "Daemonhunters can ally with Space Marines or Imperial Guard", I don't think it says what codex to use. Be kinda silly to say in 4th edition they can ally and in 5th they can't? They are still all Imperial Forces, so it's still fluffy and fits the theme. If it were the case that the codex isn't compatible, wouldn't the last version of the codex not be usable as well, since Daemonhunters was 3rd edition?

archite666 wrote:

I say cheesy because, rather than use units I enjoy playing and enjoy modeling, I am playing with units that will make my list good. Truth be told I enjoy playing line guard and modeling all their fun choices and wargear. You will see this list in mechanised which is rather simple to play and simply to model.

I would say that if you like the units enough, use them. That's what I do. So what if I lose some games here and there? (ok.... almost all the time, but still). I enjoy winning, yeah, but I really like the strategy of the game more. Maybe it isn't the best army, but if I can squeak out a win, that means I was able to use that non-best army to win. It's more of a challenge. I built my army the way I wanted it to be, and then made it work in the codex. Maybe this is from the fact that I got into 40k because I loved the relaxation the painting gave me.... I've already gotten the enjoyment out of it that I wanted (the painting), and being able to play a great game with it, win or lose, is just icing on the cake!

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Last edited by bojesphob1 on Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:59 pm

Ghazkhull wrote:
HAND OF DUME wrote:
Do you make a list to lose? No, you make one to win.
Nobody makes list to lose. That doesn't mean they make a list to WIN. I resent that comment. You have likely never met me, yet you can make a blanket statement and lump me right on in there.

Once in my life did I make an army to SMASH a specific opponent and that was in a friendly campaign as a retaliatory action for a double-cross by him. Purely in fun. I build armies with a strong leaning towards background that I made up for my army. I make them as versatile as possible. I can go toe-to-toe with any army out there. I win some, I lose some. I almost always have a fun game.

Some douchebag wants to build a list SPECIFICALLY to beat me into next week? See ya around.

Who are you and where do you usually play 40k? Just wondering, so I can steer clear.Ghazkhull

Lump you in there, until now you haven't posted on this thread... confused

Go ahead and make your army versitile, I could care less, but don't chastize me for the way I make mine.

If you can't handle or don't like playing hard lists, then you limit your field of opponents and there are these lists everywhere. (douche bag...the name calling is really childish, your profile says 40 not 4)

Don't head North!

Didn't the OP ask to drop the cheese issue and get on subject. I'm totally done with this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: New guard list of cheese (1500pt)   Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:07 pm

I'm sorry I asked the question about cheese.

affraid
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