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 Transformers mini review SPOILERS!

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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:11 pm

Even though there were inconsistancies I still enjoyed the movie, granted there were several parts that were over done and could have been left out I still thought it made for a decent story. I was a bit thrown off that Sam would use the all spark on the Old one to revive him instead of Optimus at first but then if he hadn't then they wouldn't have found any of the other stuff either.

The article is funny and does bring up some good points but I still enjoyed the movie.

My biggest complaint is still the racist thing that people keep bringing up. How can the movie be racist for having the twins acting the way they did? Because if I am not mistaken and please correct me if I am wrong here but the Autobots learned from studying different aspects of the human race and picked one to mimick as far as mannerisms and speech goes, correct? At what point in time do the twins become racist. Are people saying that teh twins are racist because the actions of the twins are a mockery of a particular group of people? Or that they are too close to a type of person or people?

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:54 pm

One complaint that I heard, makari, is that the twins couldn't read. I read one review where they were really ranting on that fact. But after seeing the movie a second time yesterday, I realized that none of the transformers could read! The only ones that could were the "Old ones" or whatever they were called (ie, the Blackbird guy). So, I realized at that point that particular complaint was rather overblown. I do think it was overdone, but I agree, I don't particularly understand exactly where it ends up being considered racist.

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:38 pm

It was a lot less about the fact they couldn't read and more the way they said it. The inflection being that reading just wasn't important in the furst place.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:41 pm

Sexiest_hero wrote:
It was a lot less about the fact they couldn't read and more the way they said it. The inflection being that reading just wasn't important in the furst place.

It wasn't important to read the ancient language is what they were referring to how is that racist? Kinda like how the majority of people cannot read Latin right now. Even if they were speaking of any reading how would that be racist? Are you implying that because the transformers chose the specific mannerisms and attitudes of street thugs and chose to take one aspect of that, a minor one in my dealings with wanna bes and real thugs, and didnt develop their reading ability racist? Is that to imply that street thugs can't read? because that would be kinda stereotyping...

I honestly think people are making too much out of this, I don't think they sat around the table figuring out what would be racist or not. I'd rather have characters that show some type of individuality then a standard robot emotions.

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:51 pm

to me Makari hit the nail on the head there I think to many people walked into the movie, and then looked for ways to tear it down/apart.

were it seems a lot of people took a negative veiw to how they acted to me I thought they were fine becasue of the fact it was a individuality thing and not a large group of bots. and thats really were the arguement should end, it was 2 of them not the whole group.


but whatever people are allowed their thoughts


to me the movie was great, sure there were a few errors(some people seemed to have missed that I saw) but who cares, all movies are going to have errors, people only pick them up if they are looking to bash a movie



but hey this my pbly 10 cents worth so enjoy
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 pm

I did not pick up on anything other than Optimus being much more badass and being able to take down more than one decepticon in a standup fight against four.

...Maybe having my girlfriend there lowered my perceptive abilities.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:36 am

I don't really want to beat the racist thing to death ... but honestly, those twins were just about the most blatantly racist characters I've seen in a movie in a while. For those of you (makari, frostwolf, anyone else I'm missing) who are skeptical that the twins are racist, I'll break down my take on the twins.

First off, I think how they came off was an honest (if stupid and tasteless) mistake. They were clearly meant to provide comic relief, and did so to some extend (I did laugh at some of their jokes). But along with this comic relief came some pretty bad stereotyping.

Other characters in the movie (a great many, actually) provided similar comic relief, but without having to draw on stereotypical impersonations of a specific subculture. The roommate and Agent Simmons (silly though they were at times), drew their comedy from their ridiculous personalities and their antics. The twins, on the other hand, were pure caricatures, and the only source of their jokes was the fact that they were robots who acted like street thugs.

This is just the first layer. Most of the blatant stuff could possibly be explained or excused as comic relief, but there is a host of other subtle stuff that reveals the writers' viewpoint as ethnocentric, if not racist. I'd rather not turn my post into an essay, so I'll skip most of the subtle stuff, but I'd like to elaborate just a little bit more.

The best example I can think of right now to illustrate my point is actually from the first Transformers movie, because I know it better:

It happens when the Autobots arrive on Earth. The Autobots roll up, and Sam meets Optimus Prime. All the Autobots introduce themselves, and Jazz says, "What's crackin' little bitches?" Sam says, "Where'd you learn to talk like that?" Optimus says ...

Wait. There it was. It was when Sam asked "Where'd you learn to talk like that?" That innocent statement showcases the assumptions made by both the character Sam and by the screenwriters. OF COURSE if giant robots were to come down to Earth, they'd talk like white people. That was assumed when Sam didn't bat an eye as Optimus Prime introduced himself in English. But Jazz's intro required a quizzical statement, because he talked weird. This little bit of dialogue, though trivial on its own, shows how the makers of Transformers are looking through a white perspective at the world.

Some of you may read what I just wrote and go "huh?" Some of you may think I'm out in left field. However, racism and prejudice are the topics I've studied the most (by far) in college, and I've learned how to recognize it when I see it. I'm open to dialogue on this topic (perhaps in another thread?), because this isn't stuff to joke around with. That's part of why I couldn't bring myself to like TF2, racism is one topic I have decided to get serious about.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:29 am

You've managed to hit the nail on the head Chethrok_Bloodfist. If only i hadn't wasted my College years on film lol
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:00 am

Chethrok_Bloodfist wrote:
This little bit of dialogue, though trivial on its own, shows how the makers of Transformers are looking through a white perspective at the world.

Some of you may read what I just wrote and go "huh?" Some of you may think I'm out in left field. However, racism and prejudice are the topics I've studied the most (by far) in college, and I've learned how to recognize it when I see it. I'm open to dialogue on this topic (perhaps in another thread?), because this isn't stuff to joke around with. That's part of why I couldn't bring myself to like TF2, racism is one topic I have decided to get serious about.

Well, I would say that the writers wrote the character of Sam as someone who see things from a white perspective of the world... which would be entirely possible for someone who grew up as Sam (or any number of white suburban kids) did.

If anything, I would say that the writers of the movies are trying to hard to cater to a stereotypical Transformers fan (Geeky suburban white kids)...... while at the same time enforcing negetive stereotypes of another group. Either way it's not a good thing considering the way the world has changed since the 80's (when the transformers storylines started), but to do the opposite and tell the story as if these cultural stereotypes don't exist...... would be so disingenuous that the story would suck.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:51 am

Ok, this is one of the definitions of stereotype that I think a lot of people are trying to use here:

"stereotype

A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group."

Now, I'm trying to understand the fuss here, so this may be a rather obvious answer that I may be missing....

Here's the question: How are we equating the twins (which, I really do agree they were over the top and over done in their use, but I don't think that they were racist, per se) to create "a generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group"? Did they go out of their way to say that all African Americans were like this? I would think that would be stereotyping, like when they would have used face paint on a white guy to show that they believed all blacks were mentally deficient (like some of the old black and white/silent films would occasionally do), but to me it doesn't look like they were doing that. Am I wrong with that? And if so, how?

And chethrok, when do we start taking something as trivial as asking where a group of aliens learned to talk (and not only talk, but several different dialects of the same language), and try assigning a race to it? He wasn't surprised that Jazz sounded black, he was surprised that they were all speaking in a language that he could understand, and multiple dialects at that, especially considering Bumblebee couldn't speak at all. I know that in that situation, I'd be thinking "Holy crap, they can all talk, AND they can all talk different ways that Americans do" and not "Wow, that one, he sounds black".... That's how I took that scene, that he was surprised that they could talk, not "wow, he's racist". I bet if Jazz would have spoken Russian, he probably would have said the same thing exactly the same way.

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:48 am

bojesphob1 wrote:
Ok, this is one of the definitions of stereotype that I think a lot of people are trying to use here:

"stereotype

A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group."

Now, I'm trying to understand the fuss here, so this may be a rather obvious answer that I may be missing....

Here's the question: How are we equating the twins (which, I really do agree they were over the top and over done in their use, but I don't think that they were racist, per se) to create "a generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group"? Did they go out of their way to say that all African Americans were like this? I would think that would be stereotyping, like when they would have used face paint on a white guy to show that they believed all blacks were mentally deficient (like some of the old black and white/silent films would occasionally do), but to me it doesn't look like they were doing that. Am I wrong with that? And if so, how?

And chethrok, when do we start taking something as trivial as asking where a group of aliens learned to talk (and not only talk, but several different dialects of the same language), and try assigning a race to it? He wasn't surprised that Jazz sounded black, he was surprised that they were all speaking in a language that he could understand, and multiple dialects at that, especially considering Bumblebee couldn't speak at all. I know that in that situation, I'd be thinking "Holy crap, they can all talk, AND they can all talk different ways that Americans do" and not "Wow, that one, he sounds black".... That's how I took that scene, that he was surprised that they could talk, not "wow, he's racist". I bet if Jazz would have spoken Russian, he probably would have said the same thing exactly the same way.


AMEN brother. And serious guys....I can name a few worse off movies if you want to rant and rave about Sexism and the such. So the twins were ghetto. BIG F****iNG DEAL.

People need to quit taking life so seriously. My question to some of you that didn't like the movie is, how do you handle every day life? You see this stuff on the strreets every day and then you tear apart a 2 1/2 hour movie cuz the twins use slang. Or language was used that shouldn't be used. First off, go back to the hole you came up from. Your not ready to be part of the real world. It's ok.


Last edited by makari on Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ****Curse Word edited out**** By Makari, Please refrain from cussing, thanks.)
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:51 pm

bojesphob1 wrote:
Ok, this is one of the definitions of stereotype that I think a lot of people are trying to use here:

"stereotype

A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group."

Now, I'm trying to understand the fuss here, so this may be a rather obvious answer that I may be missing....

Here's the question: How are we equating the twins (which, I really do agree they were over the top and over done in their use, but I don't think that they were racist, per se) to create "a generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group"? Did they go out of their way to say that all African Americans were like this? I would think that would be stereotyping, like when they would have used face paint on a white guy to show that they believed all blacks were mentally deficient (like some of the old black and white/silent films would occasionally do), but to me it doesn't look like they were doing that. Am I wrong with that? And if so, how?

And chethrok, when do we start taking something as trivial as asking where a group of aliens learned to talk (and not only talk, but several different dialects of the same language), and try assigning a race to it? He wasn't surprised that Jazz sounded black, he was surprised that they were all speaking in a language that he could understand, and multiple dialects at that, especially considering Bumblebee couldn't speak at all. I know that in that situation, I'd be thinking "Holy crap, they can all talk, AND they can all talk different ways that Americans do" and not "Wow, that one, he sounds black".... That's how I took that scene, that he was surprised that they could talk, not "wow, he's racist". I bet if Jazz would have spoken Russian, he probably would have said the same thing exactly the same way.

Good questions. And there is no obvious answer that you're missing - that's part of why racism is so tough an issue.

I believe that the twins were very much a "generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group." As I said before, almost all of their humor stemmed directly from an exaggeration of the subculture they were representing - when the audience laughed in the theater, it was when they saw the twins fist-pounding, or saying "I'm gonna mess yo face up!" They were also oversimplified, significantly more so than even the other Autobots. Perhaps most importantly, they were also the only characters in the movie who acted that way, and they also happened to be pretty stupid. The correlation isn't intentional, and wasn't meant to "describe or distinguish a group," but ended up doing so anyways. One doesn't need to actively be making a bold, intentional statement to include a stereotype - in fact, it's often the opposite. Stereotypes show up when we aren't being intentional or thinking hard about what we're doing. The twins weren't racist in the sense that they were intentionally derogatory, they were racist in the sense that they made a contribution to culture-wide stereotypes that, when taken as a whole, serve to trivialize or make comedic a certain subculture.


With regard to your second point, I understand what you're saying about that part being trivial. I chose it as an example specifically because it is so trivial, and because it's not a big deal. To be clear, I'm not calling that part racism, and I don't have a problem with this dialogue the way I have a problem with the twins. I picked that line because it's not racist, but it is ethnocentric, and I'd like to distinguish the two.

Ethnocentrism is the tendency to view the world through one's own cultural lens. It's a natural human tendency, and is inevitable to some extent. Only problem is, when people assume that their specific view is everybody's view, people who don't share that view get overlooked. Sam sat in awe as the Autobots introduced themselves, but his curiosity wasn't piqued enough to ask a question until Jazz piped in. Then, he didn't ask "Where'd you all learn to speak English?", he asked, "Where'd you learn to talk like that?", directed at Jazz. He probably wasn't thinking, "Wow, that one, he sounds black ...," and neither would most people. But ethnocentrism isn't about what you're thinking, it's about what you're not thinking - the assumptions you're making while you're doing your thinking.

Again, that example: not racism, but ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism isn't bad in itself (it's quite normal), but it lays the foundation for prejudice, and often leads to racism. To the extent that ethnocentrism allows racism, it's not good: the writers' ethnocentric perspective led to the comment by Sam to Jazz (perfectly okay), but it also led to the twins (not okay).

I hope I've made things more clear, and not more confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:13 pm

Now that is an answer I can accept. But really folks......it's a 2 1/2 hour movie. There are other things we could discuss over 2 robots that learned their language from Brooklyn NY or from the Bronx. Maybe Detroit Michigan or They landed on Central and Vine. Thing is, they picked these things up from the Web as stated in the movie. Would anyone go off on the movie if they picked up on the What what in the but video??? Or landed maybe down on 10th and Madison with all the Transvestites or cross dressers???

Hey, this is were our society is at. It's not covered up or hidden. Why should a movie be any different. I seen the movie as every day life, cept it had big robots.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:25 pm

CJ wrote:
AMEN brother. And serious guys....I can name a few worse off movies if you want to rant and rave about Sexism and the such. So the twins were ghetto. BIG FUCKING DEAL.

People need to quit taking life so seriously. My question to some of you that didn't like the movie is, how do you handle every day life? You see this stuff on the strreets every day and then you tear apart a 2 1/2 hour movie cuz the twins use slang. Or language was used that shouldn't be used. First off, go back to the hole you came up from. Your not ready to be part of the real world. It's ok.

How do I handle every day life? I pick my battles. Challenging every racist thing I see would be obsessive and pointless. People tend not to like it when you make them think about things they usually don't need to think about, especially when you're also asking them to change opinions they hold. 95% of the people who need to hear this would never listen. However, bringing this up to a group of people that I know and respect, and who will hopefully give this issue a moment's thought, seems worthwhile to me. The objective is not to rant about a particular movie (I already got that out of the way), the objective is to provoke thought on a serious issue.

I guess I'm not ready to be part of the real world. You know, that world where people kill, oppress and hurt each other? But hey, it happens all the time, and there's nothing I can do about it. And it doesn't even affect my life in the slightest. So it's time to get real and stop caring. That seems like the right thing to do. Trying to make whatever tiny difference I can isn't just unrealistic, it's laughable, and worth being flamed for and told to go back to the hole I came from.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:32 pm

and you just made my point........appreciate that.

Don't get me wrong. I respect everyone's opinion. But there are other battles then going off on a fictional movie.



Besides....if you guys really wanted to get on a topic.....let's talk Star Trek. I think Kirk is a womaniser and a male slut.......what do you guys think about that?

Might just be me. I got a good friend from Toledo that's black. I can relate to the speech cuz I went to a school that was as much black as it was white. I grew up in an era were in Toledo and near Detroit, people talked this way. Just used to it.

And the 3 tmes I have seen the movie....everyone laughed. No one got up. No one was ranting and raving that the movie was reaciest or sexist. Must of been with a bunch of people to relize what it really was and that was a movie.

OH....and i alos think the Lil Mermaid is a tramp. Good job Disney....
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:52 pm

Thanks, Chethrok, I understand what you were meaning now, and I do tend to agree, to a certain extent. I'm still not quite convinced that the twins jump into racism (more so to your ethnocentrism concept than racism), but I do see your point on it being a stereotype. Not really a big deal in the long run, but I do appreciate you explaining. I, personally, didn't find the twins all that funny (except the comment to the roommate guy about being a p@##^ of course Smile ).

Though, I would have thought that it would have been funny to see a lifted, rusted 4x4 with a gun rack in the back window as an autobot! That's DEFINITELY a stereotype, and would have been a hoot to hear it talk with the Cletus the Slackjawed Yokul speech Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:14 pm

Thanks for listening, bojesphob. I'll get off my soap box now. I agree that a redneck Autobot would have been funny, just like the twins would have been funny if done differently. The interplay between them would have been interesting.

And pleeeease don't get me started on Star Trek and Kirk's womanizing ...
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:17 pm

I got a little upset when I started hearing people trash the movie mainly because of the "racism" and not on this site people have given their good reasons why they didn't enjoy it. Here is a very good reason why I am upset that people are obviously too sensitive and yelling racism for no reason...

My Brother Jon as most of you know him from gaming was fired a few weeks back... the thing that got him fired? He made a Racist remark. Wow really you say what did he say? you ask...

My sister walked over to his cubicle and saw that he had some fried chicken ready for lunch. She remarked that it looked real good. Jon replied "yes, but it would be better with some Iced Tea and Watermelon"

Yes some of you maybe going Oh snap! Racist jerk... However as was tried to be pointed out is that we were raised in the south and that was a staple in our diet. What happened was that a colleague of his ( A black Male) in an adjacent cubicle overheard and went to HR. Jon was escorted out of the building in 30 minutes, without the ability to voice his concern.
The company stated that in order to avoid litigation they had to fire him for his racist remark.

Problems?
1. Well the colleague had every right to go to HR as is anyones right to do so when they feel slighted. He is not at fault per se. Main problem in our society is you have people out there that have EXTREMELY LOUD mouths that tout racism is rampant, and I'm not denying its there but it isnt that big of a deal... Oh but your white you don't know what that is like? Bull **IT
Growing up in the wonderful Commonwealth of Virginia if you are dyslexic you were deemed mentally retarded and put into special classes... Because I refused to check the White Caucasian Box and checked Other Cherokee Native American box i was treated like I was an idiot for a good 2 years going through testing and taking AP classes and Special Ed classes cause I was too smart for everything but Math (I kept writing Backwards). Because I was a minority I was treated like crap
2. HR didn't handle this too well because Our society is too jumpy and too sensitive I think.
3. Just because It pertains to a group of ethnicity does not mean it excludes any other people who may act the same way.


I am really tired of people getting racism and stereo typing confused and taking stereo typing as a full blown racist remark. Crap man We all fill stereotypical roles from time to time. We all joke about it and seriously if people are getting offended by the twins perhaps they need to get a lesson in real life and check out those "stereotypes" and realize that the stereotypes arent really everything that they perceived them to be in the first place and those that feel it is racism seems to me that they may be racist themselves or at the very least ignorant for the fact that it is just an example of an over inflated persona.

phew sorry really long winded... Got that off my chest... now please can't we all just get along...

CJ and Chethrok You have brought up some good points and i like hearing the feed back too, remember CJ clean mouth and no attacking after my post of name calling.

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:21 pm

Chethrok_Bloodfist wrote:
Thanks for listening, bojesphob. I'll get off my soap box now. I agree that a redneck Autobot would have been funny, just like the twins would have been funny if done differently. The interplay between them would have been interesting.

And pleeeease don't get me started on Star Trek and Kirk's womanizing ...




LOL!!!!! HAHAahahahahaah......just made my day Chet...lol
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:40 pm

I won't promise.......And Chet....sorry about the hole comment. Not how I meant it being used....I am polish you know.....not a sterotype.....living fact...LOL
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Nathan
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:55 pm

Shocked I am really surprised this thread wasn't locked down a little while ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:55 pm

arent we all surpised that it hasnt been locks, give it time someone will lock it I am sure
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:06 pm

S'all good, CJ, I believe the world could use a good dose of humor as well, as long as it doesn't become an escape. That's what games with little toy soldiers are for!

BAM! Segue back to on-topic!

I did like the fact that Optimus actually used his arm blades this time, instead of getting tossed around by Megatron. Never quite figured that out about the first movie. And beating Starscream with the arm he just ripped off of him was pretty cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:10 pm

anyone besides me notice that the one guy stole the jacket? just a random thing I noticed and while I was talking to other about it none of them had really picked it up
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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:19 pm

What Jacket...?

I really liked seeing Megan Fox again... Especially her painting the Bike, Hey baby I have some bikes for you to paint... LOL

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PostSubject: Re: Transformers mini review SPOILERS!   Today at 11:22 pm

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