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 Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield

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Mike Leon
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PostSubject: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:05 am

Can I give my Chaos Warriors shields AND additional hand weapons?

I can't find anything in the codex or the 8th edition rulebook that says I can't.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:12 am

Yes you can, i do it with halberds and shields

And you might wanna put this in fantasy section
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:27 am

wow. I got dyslexic and clicked the wrong board. Lollercoaster.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:57 am

Nice! So give them the better save from range weapons as they run into combat. Very cool

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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:02 pm

It looks like the shield just gives them +1 to armor in 8th addition.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:35 pm

yep no more 2+ save
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:40 pm

right, but still you will get an extra +1 while on the move

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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:11 pm

Yup. And I'm down for that shiz.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:49 pm

you also get a 6+ ward save in 8th edition if you use hand weapon and shield in close combat now instead of the extra +1 to armor saves you had in 7th edition.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:04 am

Remember though that you have to chose which you will be fighting with in closed combat. So you will get either and additional attack, or the extra save stuff. But it will def help while you are moving across the board.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:54 am

quickfuze wrote:
Remember though that you have to chose which you will be fighting with in closed combat. So you will get either and additional attack, or the extra save stuff. But it will def help while you are moving across the board.

Not anymore. If you have a special weapon, you cannot chose. I believe an "extra hand weapon" counts for a special weapon.
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Mike Leon
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:34 am

I looked into all of that initially, and a shield may not be considered a weapon in the 8th Edition rules. Two hand weapons does count as a special weapon. If a shield is a weapon then it cannot be wielded in conjunction with two hand weapons. If it is not, then it can be wielded with them.

However, this matters not, because wielding the shield only affects the 6+ parry save, which my frenzied Khorne Warriors can't use anyway.

To improve their armor save they need only CARRY a shield (page 42). 3+ armor and bonus attacks FTW.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:53 pm

On page 88 it states under hand weapon and shield "Some Warriors carry a hand weapon in one hand and a shield in the other". On page 91 under two/additional hand weapons ( models on foot only) it states "Some warriors carry two hand weapons, one in each hand". So, no, you cannot have 2 weapons and a shield in combat.
On page 89 it states " if a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the close combat phase". No where that I have read does it state that you can't bring a shield and use it to boost your armor save when you are not in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:36 pm

It does say that stuff on page 88 and 91, and I think you are right. A shield and two hand weapons cannot be used together in close combat for the purpose of a 6+ parry save.

However, on page 43 it says a model that carries a shield gets the +1 armor bonus. There is also a chart displaying the category "armor worn" under which shields fall.

Also note that on page 89 (and throughout the rulebook as far as I have found), the words "carries" and "carry" are only used to refer to every item the model possesses - whether they are using it or not. In one specific instance, the word "carries" is used to refer specifically to items that the model is NOT using:

"...if the model also carries a magical close combat weapon of some kind, he will always use it in preference to other weapons he carries."

When the rulebook refers to weapons that are currently being utilized by the model for a rules benefit, the words using, wielding or the phrase fighting with are always used.

The difference is that a model can carry as many items as you want, but it can only wield or fight with one.

As on page 43 it says a model must only carry a shield to get the armor bonus, it is my conclusion that models still get the armor bonus even when they are not using the shield at all. They do not get the 6+ parry save, because that requires that they wield the shield.

Also it is my conclusion that this ruleset is even more muddled than that of 40k.

EDIT: I just posted all of this on Dakka. I should probably squat down and cover my ears.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:23 pm

Update: On page 43 it states "The value of a model's armour save is determined by the equipment it carries, as detailed in its entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book. Light armour provies a..." And it goes on to list the armour saves provided by carrying different types of armour.

This further cements my argument as, if I were wrong, this would mean that you must choose whether your models

A) attack with their hand weapons and do not use their armor

or

B) take armor saves with their armor and do not attack at all

This is because, by that interpretation, models cannot carry their weapon and their armor at the same time in close combat. They may only have the benefits of one or the other in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:52 pm

Another update:

I've now gone back and read the 7th Edition rules for all of this stuff and I can see the genesis of this issue.

On page 56 of the 7th edition rulebook it specifically states that models must fight with their hand weapon and shield to receive a +1 armor bonus in close combat.

"If a warrior on foot fights with a hand weapon and shield, he may increase his armour save by a further +1 in close combat against enemies fighting from his front."

This seems to be the root cause of this misunderstanding. People are still hanging on to this 7th edition rule.

8th Edition changed this. There is not a similar statement in the 8th edition rulebook. The 8th edition rules simply give the +1 bonus to every model that has a shield regardless of other gear or turn phase (so you get it in the shooting phase too).
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:24 am

I believe your are correct in this aspect. However, I wouldnt get too comfortable with it...my guess is that it will get the big nerf bat. I believe its just a case of poor wording creating confusion. Warriors who excel in close combat are by design supposed to lose a few guys on the way to get into combat. Thats the equalizer, because they smash your face once there.... to get the armor bonus and the combat bonus is overpowered, and I believe not what was intended. Just my two cents but I would expect this to go away with an errata...
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:09 am

many mistypes etc., reposted.


Last edited by Crobar on Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:29 am

On page 75 under the special rule "requires two hands" it states "If a weapon requires two hands to use, it is not possible for a model to use a shield or an additional hand weapon along side it in close combat ( although a shield can still be used against wounds caused by shooting and magic). That solves at least part of the question.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:05 am

If it helps, you are not the only one asking that question. It is worded very poorly for two hand weapons. There is a thread on the warhammer forums putting together a FAQ.

[url]http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73906

At the moment, though I don't think it is suppose to work that way, the rules allow two hand weapons and a shield. I guess my elves grew an extra arm Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:27 am


You can use the shield's armor bonus while you are not in combat, however, once you are in close combat, you will use your "special weapon" which two hand weapons count as.
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Mike Leon
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:47 am

Here's a funny thing. Two hand weapons do not require two hands. The rule on page 75 doesn't apply to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:41 pm

Sorry Mike, the Guys on Dakka Dakka say your not using common sense and that your ruling is wrong... Cause they are the ones who know the rules and we should listen to them Suspect ha ha ha lol I almost kept a straight face.

I haven't found a link to where they say they see that you can't get it.

RAW it sounds like you can get the save. Common sense (which really should not be heavily relied upon too much in GW games) says no.

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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:14 pm

I know. I can't believe several people actually told me to use common sense. Common sense is not any sort of a factor in these games and no one who has played more than five or ten games should know that. If common sense meant anything then my multimeltas would not have missed that Land Raider from three inches away SIX TIMES on Monday night.
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PostSubject: Re: Additional Hand Weapon AND Shield   Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:31 am

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