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 Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...

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krak_kirby
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PostSubject: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 3:58 pm

I assume there will be at least a few Grey Knight armies at Cagbash and I'm wondering about inquisitor Coteaz and his henchman unit related rule. Will henchman units count as troops and use no force org slot? If so, will the Grey Knights player need to make up his compulsory troops with terminators and strike squads?

There are debates on Dakka, but the faq from GW is not liable to make it out before Cagbash. Obviously being able to spam 35 or 40 point troop units would be terrific for objective missions, not so good for kill points, but either way, knowing what is allowed will inform my army build. I personally am against it, and I hope GW clarifies it soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 4:19 pm

A good way to answer it is to look at the wording. Lord Kaldor Draigo makes the paladins a core troop choice. I don't have my codex with me but if Coteaz rule states they become a core troop choice then you won't need to take any other troop choices. If it doesn't state that then you will need the compulsory 2 troop choices. It's all on the exact wording of it. Though I play gk I am running a Lord Draigo and Coteaz army.
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krak_kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 5:46 pm

Obviously looking at the wording is the first thing done, but GW is notorious for poor rules writing. In all three cases, Draigo, Crowe and Coteaz, the boxed rule states that Paladins, Purifiers and Inquisitorial henchmen warbands, respectively, "are Troops choices". Unfortunately, in the case of Coteaz, the question is whether or not becoming a Troops choice means they still don't use up a force org slot.

If they do use up a slot, then they can fulfill the role of compulsary Troops selection, and they would count towards the limit of six total Troops.

If they do not use up a slot, the question is whether they can be a compulsary Troop selection, or whether you must fulfill the first two with something else.

My problem is this - If I can take as many henchman warbands as I can fit in the points cost, I can load up on elite and badass other stuff and just spam 3 warrior acolytes in rhinos or razorbacks for 52 or 57 points each. Six troop choices for slightly over 300 points or heck, why not ten troops for slightly over 500? That would leave me with 1300 points of uber hard Grey Knight stuff to shove down your throat while my razorbacks roll on from reserve to claim objectives. In a kill point mission I just keep the small squads in reserve. By the time they start rolling in I should be hammering you with my hard stuff. The Fortitude power makes it even tougher to shut down such a list, and getting all those tiny squads out of transports and killing them in a 5-6 turn game is gonna be very difficult.

The final straw is the fact that the Grey Knight codex is one of the most convoluted and rule heavy codecies ever and folks will be lucky to get past turn three. I'm trying to memorize this book. There are phychic powers for pretty much everybody including vehicles, both always on and requiring tests. New special rules for practically everybody, new weapons, new grenades (one with D6 roll for effects!), ten different Inquisitorial henchmen, all with some sort of flakiness...Emperor help the Grey Knight player, never mind the poor opponent trying to keep up!

Unfortunately, RAW seems to indicate that Coteaz will allow practically unlimited numbers of henchman troops. I don't believe this is RAI, and it's open to abuse, and if it's allowed it will be abused. Hell, I may abuse it myself if I'm in a nasty mood that week. Wink
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Edge
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 6:41 pm

This is a crap argument for those that like to argue.

p.90
Henchmen are Elites that do not use up a force org slot limited by a 1:1 per Inquisitor taken.

p.86
Coteaz - Lord of Formosa - Henchmen are Troops choices and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors.

Coteaz makes them Troops. Take two units and you meet your compulsory two slots.

The no force org slot issue is removed once they become Troops.

This issue has been beaten to death on multiple forums.
Call GW...they will tell you the same thing as above.
The FAQ won't address it because it is clear in the Codex.

I am surprised you even brought the question up...you are supposed to be a veteran player and well known player of the community...

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krak_kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 10:51 pm

You keep potshotting my veteran status... Wink

The forums I'm reading haven't come to any solid conclusions, but the way the wind is blowing most think RAW favors unlimited numbers of henchmen units with Coteaz. The argument is that Coteaz makes them Troops instead of Elites, removes the 1 unit per inquisitor rule, but does not specifically remove the force org slot text, which is a sentence all it's own. That sentence specifies "This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

It's true I may be a little late to the debate, but I've heard various arguments from several other veteran gamers that tell me it's better to get a ruling from the T.O. now, rather than arguing the point game day.

As far as calling GW goes, I've gotten different answers from different U.S. trade and rules guys in the past, and that's not something I'm going to trot out in a tourney anyway. "I talked to Brandon at GW and he told me this" is weak sauce, and I won't buy it or dish it out.

All I want to know is how things will be played at this event...
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Mon May 02, 2011 10:58 pm

I have read thru Dakka Dakka and havent found mucg yet. I will be looking at the Codex tomorrow night. I have not read this particular instance although I have heard people discuss it.

I will have a ruling one way or the other this week.

@ Edge if there are numerous discussions then that means that people are thinking differently. Yes it may seem clear to you RAW but after the whole Deff Rolla argument a few years back I take nothing for granted!!!

I appreciate feedback from people in the discussion and thats what I want feedback, but please refrain from digging even in jest. This will help when people are reading through for rules clarification.

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Wed May 04, 2011 8:01 pm

THIS IS JUST A QUERY NOT A RULING, YET.

OK i talked with a few people tonight and we concluded this RAW:
Henchmen warbands are listed as elite.
You may take a unit of henchman warband for every inquisitor you have.
henchmen warband units do not use up a force org chart.
Coteaz Makes henchmen warbands Troops choices and are not limited by the number of inquisitors in your army.

If you take Coteaz:
Henchmen are Troops
There is no limitation to how many units you can have of henchmen.
They do not use up any force org chart slots.
They do not fulfill any Troop choice requirements.

I want to hear from the community what you guys think.

Kinda odd but if you wanted you could run a hoard henchmen list with 2 units of other troops... Dont know how effective it would be...

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Wed May 04, 2011 8:27 pm

RAW that would be correct but because the units normally don't take up a slot because they could normally be taken only with inquisitors. RAI they have their rules changed so that they no longer need the purchase of additional inquisitors to take them and turns them into a troop choice intending them to be take as the core choice for the army.
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Edge
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Wed May 04, 2011 9:32 pm

Makari - Curious what the ruling is for CAG...

JSYK -
Acolyte MGx3 ; Chimera HF = 97 pts
Acolyte naked x3 ; PsyBack = 62 pts

With no limit to number of squads...you are looking at an easy 10-16 SCORING squads for 1000 pts.

Please make a decision with enough time for us to react to the decision.

I wasn't trying to start a flamefest with Kirby...just voicing the ridiculous nature of this query.
Since you are the TO we would have to follow your ruling to play.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Wed May 04, 2011 10:13 pm

Here is my dilema.
I beleive the RAW says yes...
but I want to beleive RAI says no.

I see the severe impact it can and will have which is why I want to discuss this further.

A ruling will be made no later than saturday night. I will continue talking with people and debate on the forums.

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krak_kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Wed May 04, 2011 10:45 pm

When I read the text again, I started wondering if the intent is a little different.

"For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown.
This unit does not use up a forrce organisation slot."

The placing of the "may also" is what got me wondering. If the sentence read "You may have one henchmen unit for every Inquisitor in your army" I would assume you were limited to a maximum of two of these squads, and they wouldn't use up a force org slot.

I'm thinking the intent may be that you can run three of these squads as elites that do use a force org slot, and you "may also include" up two additional henchmen squads, one per inquisitor, that do not use a slot. Effectively you could have 5 elite henchmen units, even though the force org only has room for three. Thus making an all Inquisition army easier to put together.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Thu May 05, 2011 6:55 pm

For what it is worth I agree that once they become troops they take up troops slots. I understand that they have the extra wording that says they don't but it would seem that the rule would be over written by the Coteaz tax. I won't list a long list of reasons but I basically agree with Edge that when they become troops they take up slots. (unless that isn't what you meant Edge...then I disagree lol)

I would even see a argument saying that you could take a 7th unit that doesn't take up a slot in addition to the others if you wanted to since Coteaz is a Inquisitor. I think its written badly though and not clearly.

However as the organizer I also agree everyone should play in whatever manner you see as fit for the event. Although If you rule they don't take up a troops slot then I completely agree that you then must take two things that do take up a troops choice.

Just another vote since you are asking for feedback.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Fri May 06, 2011 8:43 am

So if Coteaz is ruled for unlimited Troops using Henchmen I have my list ready, I might have to go get a few models though:

100 Coteaz
30 MM Servitors x3
100 GKSS x5
100 GKSS x5
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8
80 Psyker x8

1850 on the dot. Yeah there are 19 units of S 10 AP 1 coming your way with 22 SCORING units. I could reduce the Psyker to 6 and get 25 units of S 8 AP 1 but where is the fun in that???

Man I sure do hope Makari rules the way Kirby wants him to...I can't wait! Razz

I bet this is what Matt Ward was thinking about when he made this Codex.
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Fri May 06, 2011 10:33 am

Just to let everyone know. I try to ignore what can be done with a codex when dteremining a ruling.
What cheese can be made has nothing to do with the rules.
First I have to break it down to RAW.
Then look at it RAI.
Then after all that I will look at the abuse. In General...

This one certainly is interesting but I'm sure I'll have my ruling by the end of tonight. I will be at EGC tonight if anyone is up for a debate or game!

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krak_kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Fri May 06, 2011 10:45 am

Eric, if you could drop off my Armored Medusa at the Keep sometime soon, I would appreciate it.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Fri May 06, 2011 4:11 pm

First,
most of you don't know me...my name's Mike West, and I've been running events for nigh-on 20 years.

I have it (fairly) RAW for you...and it took most of the thread I'm pointing out to do it.
I'm just going to post the link to another forum I've participated on. http://www.coliseumofcomics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4128&start=20

My post starts on page 3 there.
You will need to read further than just mys start (below) to get the gist of the entire rundown.
I think it's pretty clear, if you REALLY dissect the entry for Henchmen, tied in with Coteaz's rule...Read the thread, IMHO it is clear, but takes a few chunks of it to get that.

I will show my first post on this subject here;


"Re: Inq. Henchemen Question

Postby exitusactaprobat1 on April 10th, 2011, 8:18 am
Codex GK: Coteaz entry, pg86 'inquisitorial henchmen are troops choices in an army that includes....' (emph mine)
Codex SW: Logan Grimnar entry, pg 82 'wolfguard units counts as troops...' (emph mine)
Codex Tyranids: Termagant entry, pg 91 'for every termagant brood included in your army, you can include one tervigon as a troops choice...' (emph mine)
Codex Dark Eldar: Haemonc entry, pg85 'Wracks are troops choices in any army that includes...'

and others, I believe, but these are some of the most recent examples.

In each case, regardless of other stipulations (either core rules/force org, or what have you) the units emphasized TRULY become troops...overriding each and every rules example (core or otherwise) that states otherwise.

In the case of Coteaz, they ARE TROOPS CHOICES...which is one the simplest, clearest, and least ambiguous FOC changes of the lot.
In all the precedents that precede it, regardless of wording, common rulings and FAQ support brought them into the standard '6 per/2 min sat' standard FOC play.
From an RAI perspective, Coteaz lifts both the 'elites' status, AND the '1per inq' status as rules stated...the rest is ambiguous...BUT, from RAI, the henchmen warbands (with the 1per statement) appear to be intended as 'retinues' (which, per current trends in 'dexes, don't actually have to be attached to their attendant HQ's)...hence not occupying a force org.
with coteaz, who is stated to be one of the only(few) inquisitors with his own 'army'(sector?), the henchmen unit represents his ability to field a TRUE army (without the need for GK to mete out his justice) [additional statement, editing for clarity]


So by RAW precedent, we have a clear set of trends and stipulations.
From an RAI perspective, we have a clear idea of probable intent.
From a large sample base I am exposed to, I have seen a trend to accept them as becoming WHOLLY troops (with all the attendant rules and restrictions)...
and finally, from a 'broken rules' standpoint (using the 'gotta fill it with 2x troops first, they are troops, and don't occupy force org), I give you...

-2x 100pt GK strikes
-coteaz
-1700 unlimited points of rhinos stuffed with 1x Jakaero, and 5x psykers. (netting 13 lascannon and 13 str 7/ap-2 large blast) on turn 1...protected in pillboxes..who can all ignore stunned and shaken results...and are scoring.

I do NOT think the 'they count as troops' in all regards interpretation is twisted/sick/WAAC...I think the other side of the coin actually can be even moreso (when taken to extreme).
I think it is the 'more' logical interpretation, and most likely to be FAQ'd thus."



note that I waded into this due to someone saying it was cheezy to COUNT THEM TOTALLY as troops...as he felt the exclusion of true GK in an army from that 'dex was cheating the spirit.
I don't think he ever saw the abuse the other side could bring (as Edge did here, and I have elsewhere)...until I pointed it out.

and another part of the puzzle (after further discussion/argument)

"Okay, from a RAW perspective only we need to read the ENTIRE rule...which is...
"for each inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force organization slot." (emph mine)
not 'henchmen warbands do not use up...' but 'this unit does not...'

This clause is a rule...not a set of smaller incongruous rules that happen to coincide, but a rule.

It states that for each inq, you get a unit (a retinue, if you will).
This unit has these parameters,
and THIS unit does not use up a force org slot.
That contiguous statement defines the parameters of a retinue, and defines its restrictions as a set.

the THIS unit is the key...a rule referring to that particular purchase, as a unit, and how it interacts with the rest of the army.

coteaz lifts this restrictive rule...and makes them troops.
(per previous quotes).

In the case of a standard army/inquisitor...it is their own personal coterie.
In the case of coteaz, he is fielding an entire army.

(note that I would give you this one hands down...if it said 'inquisitorial henchmen do hot use up a force org slot'...but that is neither the wording nor, I believe, the intent)"
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Sat May 07, 2011 5:49 pm

***Official Ruling***
When Coteaz is fielded, Henchmen are Troops. They are troop choices and take up slots of the FOC as so.
The max henchmen units you can field with coteaz is 6, taking up all the troop choices.
You cannot field Henchmen from the elites section if you field coteaz, as he makes them troops.

Any further questions? did I forget anything?

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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Sat May 07, 2011 6:57 pm

makari wrote:
***Official Ruling***
When Coteaz is fielded, Henchmen are Troops. They are troop choices and take up slots of the FOC as so.
The max henchmen units you can field with coteaz is 6, taking up all the troop choices.
You cannot field Henchmen from the elites section if you field coteaz, as he makes them troops.

Any further questions? did I forget anything?

/agree

A TROOPS CHOICE is a TROOPS CHOICE - and all that that entails. Also the entry for the unit itself says "For each Inquisitor in your army, you may also include a unit of... This unit does not use up a force organization slot."

Only that particular unit that is taken with an Inquisitor does not take up a slot. You cannot take a 7th unit either (with Coteaz), because Coteaz's special rule specifically removes the "For each Inquisitor in your army..." restriction.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Sun May 08, 2011 2:27 am

Thank You Sir!!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knight Coteaz and henchman units...   Tue May 10, 2011 11:58 am

Thanks Makari for your timely ruling.
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