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 vindicare question?

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JTPitt
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PostSubject: vindicare question?   Thu May 05, 2011 3:08 am

Are gifts of chaos considered wargear items for the purpose of the shield breaker rule which destroys wargear items?
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Mike Leon
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Thu May 05, 2011 5:51 pm

No.

It is infinitely stupid, but the rules are pretty clear.

It should be irrelevant anyway. This only matters against daemons and

A: Running into Daemons at a tournament is about as likely as running into Kim Kardashian at Yottaquest

B: Daemons have invulnerable saves regardless of what equipment they have, so even if you could take away their save from wargear they would still have ANOTHER invulnerable save that you can't take away.

C: Really? It's Grey Knights vs Daemons. Do you need the judges to come over and just smash the other guy's models with a hammer? Cause that's the only way that match-up can get any more one-sided.
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JTPitt
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Thu May 05, 2011 6:40 pm

It's not infinitely stupid because if you can remove a two plus save from a model then it helps. Regardless of whether it sucks if it is able to break the wargear isn't the question. The question is whether or not gifts of chaos are wargear items.
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Edge
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Fri May 06, 2011 8:59 am

Gifts of Chaos are not wargear and are not Psychic abilities.

Wargear came out after the Codex.

p.77 of Chaos Demons
Daemonic Gifts: This part details Daemonic Gifts (upgrades) that models in the squad entry carry by default. The cost for all of these is included in the points cost of the models. It also includes optional upgrades in the shape of more Daemonic Gifts that can be bought for your models at an extra points cost.

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so and their cost in points.


p.81 Grey Knights
Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with. The cost for all these models and their equipment is included in the points cost listed next to the unit name.

Fateweaver still gets his 3+ Inv...can't take it away.
I don't believe any of the Daemons have a GoC that gives them the Inv save, I believe all of the Inv saves are 'natural'.

Just my dollar...

Makari?


Last edited by Edge on Tue May 10, 2011 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lord of Change
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Fri May 06, 2011 12:41 pm

He is probably referring to Blessing of the Blood god. It grants a 2++ v. psychic powers.
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Mike Leon
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Sun May 08, 2011 7:13 pm

John, I think it is stupid, because they should have just made it remove all invulnerable saves and things would have been simple. But GW went and made it confusing like they always do.

But I am pretty certain the way it is worded that Daemons do not have wargear. The description on page 73 of Chaos Daemons says that Daemonic Gifts "are equivalent to the weapons and other wargear used by mere mortals."

It doesn't say "counts as" wargear. In other similar rules disputes, the phrase "counts as" is taken to mean that item A actually is item B and things that affect item B also affect item A. "Counts as Jump Infantry", for instance, means that something is actually jump infantry for all rules purposes (and sometimes infantry or a monstrous creature in addition).

If you want to remove the 2++ for blessing of the blood god, this wording is where you should probably start your argument. You could possibly show that "equivalent to" is just as good as "counts as".

You might be able to convince everyone, but I don't think it's worth the research or the argument because the situation is just so unlikely to ever come up.
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PostSubject: Re: vindicare question?   Mon May 09, 2011 2:07 am

The Grey Knight codex does specify daemonic gifts when it means them. There is a power in the codex that suppresses daemonic gifts called dark banishment or something like that. The Dread Knights have it. So, I think that if they meant daemonic gifts, they would have said so. But this is GW, so who knows for sure.
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