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 Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today

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Admiral Ackbar
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PostSubject: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Hello, my name is James Bukas, I just finished competing in the tournament at East Side Games and Cards, and wanted to share some thoughts with you about my 2nd game today.

My second opponent was Brian Leugers, who played '1850' points of Chaos Daemons. I kept a copy of his list and later decided to look it over while contemplating my close loss. The list he wrote out is as follows:

HQ
Fateweaver 333
Bloodthirster (Unholy Might, Blessing of the Blood God) 275

Elite
4 Bloodcrushers (Icon, Instrument, Fury) 200
4 Bloodcrushers (Icon, Instrument, Fury) 200

[At this point I want to add that the list up to this point was fairly accurate, he also played as if he had instrument of chaos with his bloodthirster, but it's only 5 points so we'll ignore that right now]

Troops
5 Plaguebearers 75
5 Pink Horrors (Bolt of Tzeentch, Changling)

Fast Attack
11 Seekers of Slaanesh 187

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze) 160
Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze) 160
Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze) 160

Now I'd like to note, if you add up all he says he had on his models, it really is an exact 1850 points. However, me not knowing 5th edition Daemons, went into Army Builder to re-create the list. I found that he wasn't entirely forthcoming in his point allocations. I have verified with an actual codex to make sure that Army Builder wasn't wrong. I would not be making this post if I hadn't done that. What Brian Leugers did not add into his list goes beyond that 5 point difference with the Bloodthirster. He had 2 models with icons on them, one with the Plaguebearers and one with the horrors (no I'm not talking about The Changling). Those are 25 point upgrades each. Now I know what you're thinking... just because he had the models with the icons doesn't necessarily mean he was using them. Normally I'd agree with you, only he did use the icon from the plague bearers to place one of the Bloodcrusher squads. funny thing, he did it on the turn that the plague bearers came in on. If you read the codex, you'll find that the model must be on the board at the start of the turn to be able to use the icon. I could go on with that, but I think I've said enough, so let's move on.

The Seekers of Slaanesh used Transfixing Gaze, which forces a model in close combat to lose 1 attack provided they are in base to base contact with the enemy model they wish to use it on. Please note 2 things:
1. Transfixing Gaze is not in his list.
2. The model he said had it was in the back (not in b2b) when I asked why my Hive Tyrant had 1 less attack.
He had also claimed that he had equipped the seekers with an Instrument of Chaos (5 points), but I can't say for sure if he was going to act on it or not. My Genestealers slaughtered them before they could have claimed to use it.

Next thing in line is the Daemon Princes of Chaos. Keep in mind, the Daemons Daemon Princes are vastly different from the Space Marines Daemons in a few ways.
1. 3+ armor save is a 30 point upgrade called 'Iron Hide'. This is not listed in his heavy support list. All of his Daemon Princes used it. No, I'm not mistaking the 3 Daemon Princes for the 1 Bloodthirster that actually does come with it base.
2. Unholy Might to make the Daemon Princes strength 6 instead of 5 was also not listed but used, and is a 20 point upgrade.
3. Instrument of Chaos (if it was used) is a 5 point upgrade. Instrument of Chaos lets you win close combat draws by 1 wound. Considering he had 'given it' to a few others that didn't get mentioned on his list, I don't know whether or not to actually add this one here. Considering his game play and a few other things, I wouldn't be surprised if he did claim having it if the time were to come as he had already done so for a few others.
4. One of the Daemon Princes moved 12 inches in 1 movement phase 1 time. That upgrade is called Daemonic Flight, and is a 60 point upgrade. That Daemon Prince died my shooting phase after it moved the 12 inches.

I tallied up all the points that I knew he had. It was at least 2145 points, and could have been as high as 2265 points.

Last thing I'd like to note, Brian Leugers was using huge strictly square dice when he wanted to roll high and smaller rounded edged dice to roll his scatter and 2 leadership checks for Fateweaver when I managed to get unsaved wounds on him.

I'm not setting this up to complain, or to start a forum rant or anything. I'm merely voicing this so that others can be aware and call this guy out if they see it, as it ruins the game for everybody.

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Eidolon99
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:28 pm

Quote :
Last thing I'd like to note, Brian Leugers was using huge strictly square dice when he wanted to roll high and smaller rounded edged dice to roll his scatter and 2 leadership checks for Fateweaver when I managed to get unsaved wounds on him.

This same exact thing happened to me a year back at the yottaquest tournament. These 2 small white chessex dice came out for fateweavers leadership, and were never seen before or after during the game, except for that moment.
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Edge
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 pm

Without actually talking to Brian about your allegations, which will happen soon, I think you have two issues as a player in a tournament.

1. IF you had a problem with the player (gameplay or dice), did you address the issue with him? Or did you address the issue with the TO?

2. IF you had a problem with the list (WYSIWYG or content), did you address the issue with him? Or did you address the issue with the TO?

I can say for certainty two things.

1. I was present at EGC Tourney and heard no issues arise at the Tourney and talked to Brian multiple times on his progress and games.

2. I have played against Brian's Demons many times, written battle reports on our games, checked his list before the game, during the game and after the game, as I do with all of my opponents. I have never had an issue with Brian's games or his lists. Brian has played the same list with little change for months if not longer at many Tourneys. Never before was there a problem.

As to the 'Dice' issue...is it possible that it is one of his quirks? is it possible that there is nothing wrong here?

Your last statement of "I'm not setting this up to complain, or to start a forum rant or anything. I'm merely voicing this so that others can be aware and call this guy out if they see it, as it ruins the game for everybody." goes against your entire post. Either you have a problem and need to address it or you don't have a problem and need to retract your issue.

Making strong allegations of cheating against a player only invites controversy and retaliation.

Brian - Do you have a retort?


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Admiral Ackbar
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:37 pm

Unfortunately for me, I wasn't aware of things until talking about it after the game was already over and I was eating at Stake and Shake with another player that was there. When we started to talk about various things it was voiced that CD Demon Princes do not come with the same 3+ armor save that CSM Daemon Princes. It is instead a 30 point upgrade called Iron Hide, hence the list being re-added in Army Builder. Considering he had used the Plaguebearers as a focal point to deep strike Bloodcrushers from, I just thought that Plaguebearers naturally came with an icon and didn't question it. I still have that copy of his army list if you would like to go over it. Please keep in mind, I did not solely rely on Army Builder, I did indeed actually look at everything in a real codex given that Army Builder isn't always 100% accurate.
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Korrova
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:00 am

Wow...

I don't know the tournament, or those involved. I do know that this hobby and the community as a whole relies on a great deal of trust. I'd hate to see something like this remain unresolved. Whether the allegations are found to be true, or a misunderstanding, things like this can damage the player community.

It is good that it is brought to light, as often issues are left unresolved and divide the community as a whole. Very often someone's perception can become their reality, and at that point they come to believe, and share, their opinion whether it is based in truth or not.

In the end, I'd hope that no one feels the need to cheat at plastic army men, whether for a friendly game, local tourney, or major national event.
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:14 am

I found out about this post last night at my mothers wake (so please excuse the lateness of the reply) and I am rather disturbed by this posting.

I do not like people called out in this manner. I don't see how this could be constructive to the gaming community, as Korrova stated, without trying to resolve this issue privately and or with the Tournament Organizer and Opponent first. i realize that you didnt really start piecing things together after you left the store but you could have brought it to Clints attention and discuss it with Brian at a later date. Absolutely the community games on trust, and for sure how I play, and I do not suggest that you just forget about this, but I do beleive this is not the appropriate way to have handled this. Perception vs. Reality, Knowledge vs. Ignorance which ever the case, before making allegations this severe, you should confirm yourself by looking at the Codex and tools like army builder (which you mentioned you did) AND talk to your opponent about them or T.O. The majority of the players can be contacted here on CAG. Sometimes playrs make a mistake or two about their list especially if they make last minute changes before the tournament, does this excuse them from cheating?, no it doesn't but it does happen and it is not done intetionally or malicously so again discussing this with your opponent and TO will help. I do not know if this was the case butif it was it could have been resolved more amicable. If you bring it to a TO's attention it will help for future tournaments. When I get warnings about players I do pass these on to other T.O.'s in the area when possible so as to prevent this from happeningon a regular basis as do other T.O.'s inform me. I do not have a perfect answer to the issue you have brought up but I hope it can be rectified in a timely manner

Edge is correct about the dice issue. If you feel that anything suspicious is going on, the proper channel starts with your opponent. Bring it to his attention that you are not sure or comfortable with which dice they are using and request that they be more random with their dice choices. I've seen many opponents use "LD" dice, armor save dice and the lot. I personally am ok with that because I understand people and good luck charms, but I also understnad fairness and perception so if you feel unomfortable make the request with the opponent, if there is an issue contact the Tournament Organizer.

I would appreciate in the future that everyone try to follow a less aggressive path and not call people out like this without first discussing with your opponent and T.O. please. Also if you feel that you must go this route perhaps at first when posting you not mention their name at all. Perhaps just army list and what tournament you played. This should help with any misunderstandings in case there is a grievous error made and a member of the gaming is not wrongly accused and branded a cheater without going over the proper steps to investigate.

With CAGBASH coming up soon I would like to make sure that everyone is aware that I will be available throughout the event to discuss any issues that may arise. I will be tightening up on lists this year and I will making more of an effort to double check lists with spot inspections during turn changes in games in addition to the usual points checking that has been done in the past.


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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:27 am

Just FYI in the future as soon as I catch a posting like this I will edit the players name out of the post. So do me a favor and dont posts names. As this can be damaging to credibilities for people that may be innocent or a simple misunderstanding.
I do not want this post to get out of control so I am warning now that if it gets out of hand I will lock this thread as well as edit any inappropriate posts.

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The footprints made in the sands of time are not made by sitting down... Unless your playing Warhammer WAAAGH!

New times calls for new Records:
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Empire (0-0-0)
6th Edition
Orks (0-0)
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Lost Boyz
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:20 pm


I am sure Brian will discuss his list with you. You probably should have just contacted him directly.

I'll just say I have played him for several years - and I can vouchsafe that his dice are certainly random!
Our last game my miserable Orks wiped him off the table -- riding on the horrible, horrible dice rolls of his big ole casino dice.
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:20 am

I too have played Brian for many years and can vouch for him. This seems all out of character. I have seen many people use different dice for different rolls/tests during game play. If it is an issue for you than you need to say something during the game, most players will oblige your request without any problems.
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Lord of Change
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:06 pm

James, if you ever want to discuss things like this with me, just PM me or tell me in person. I visit this site at least once a day. The shame of this whole thing is that you are just misremembering the events of our game. For example:

Quote :
He had 2 models with icons on them, one with the Plaguebearers and one with the horrors (no I'm not talking about The Changling). Those are 25 point upgrades each. Now I know what you're thinking... just because he had the models with the icons doesn't necessarily mean he was using them. Normally I'd agree with you, only he did use the icon from the plague bearers to place one of the Bloodcrusher squads. funny thing, he did it on the turn that the plague bearers came in on. If you read the codex, you'll find that the model must be on the board at the start of the turn to be able to use the icon. I could go on with that, but I think I've said enough, so let's move on.

I tried to deepstrike the Bloodcrushers more toward your 3 man unit that could shoot without line of sight. They scattered way back toward the Plaguebearers. The Bearers, I tried to put into the terrain with an objective in it. They scattered out, so I ran them back in. In turn the got shot to pieces then assaulted by the Ymgarl stealers . Youíll remember I didnít even have you roll the dice, I just removed the lone Plaguebearer from the board. Also, the Horrors were the last unit to come in and did so on the last turn of our game. The icons are on the Bloodcrushers and are clearly marked.

Quote :
Next thing in line is the Daemon Princes of Chaos. Keep in mind, the Daemons Daemon Princes are vastly different from the Space Marines Daemons in a few ways.
1. 3+ armor save is a 30 point upgrade called 'Iron Hide'. This is not listed in his heavy support list. All of his Daemon Princes used it. No, I'm not mistaking the 3 Daemon Princes for the 1 Bloodthirster that actually does come with it base.
2. Unholy Might to make the Daemon Princes strength 6 instead of 5 was also not listed but used, and is a 20 point upgrade.
3. Instrument of Chaos (if it was used) is a 5 point upgrade. Instrument of Chaos lets you win close combat draws by 1 wound. Considering he had 'given it' to a few others that didn't get mentioned on his list, I don't know whether or not to actually add this one here. Considering his game play and a few other things, I wouldn't be surprised if he did claim having it if the time were to come as he had already done so for a few others.
4. One of the Daemon Princes moved 12 inches in 1 movement phase 1 time. That upgrade is called Daemonic Flight, and is a 60 point upgrade. That Daemon Prince died my shooting phase after it moved the 12 inches.

Points one and two make me think youíre thinking of the Bloodcrushers. They have Iron Hide and are strength 6 on the charge. The other reason is that none of the Daemon Princes were ever assaulted or initiated an assault. Two were blown up by your shooting and the last on kept shooting at you Tyranofex and Hive Tyrant.

Point three. I think I know the situation you are talking about. After the Ymgarls killed the Bearers, Fatey flew over along with the Thirster to deal with them. Breath of Chaos took out all but three. The Thirster assaulted through cover. The stealers went first and put one wound on him. He swung back needing 3s and 2s. Out of six attacks he only got two of them and they both wounded. So two Stealers died. No instrument was used as it is pointless on a Bloodthirster.

Point four was not a move, but a really bad scatter when the Prince Deepstruck in.

Quote :
The Seekers of Slaanesh used Transfixing Gaze, which forces a model in close combat to lose 1 attack provided they are in base to base contact with the enemy model they wish to use it on. Please note 2 things:
1. Transfixing Gaze is not in his list.
2. The model he said had it was in the back (not in b2b) when I asked why my Hive Tyrant had 1 less attack.
He had also claimed that he had equipped the seekers with an Instrument of Chaos (5 points), but I can't say for sure if he was going to act on it or not. My Genestealers slaughtered them before they could have claimed to use it.
This part I canít help you with. At no point was this ever stated of discussed. I canít think of anything you might be confusing this with, because it did not happen. The Seekers multi charged the Stealers and Hive Tyrant and died like chumps the next turn.

Quote :
Last thing I'd like to note, Brian Leugers was using huge strictly square dice when he wanted to roll high and smaller rounded edged dice to roll his scatter and 2 leadership checks for Fateweaver when I managed to get unsaved wounds on him.

As for this, I donít see a problem with it, but after talking to some others on another board, I can see how others might view it dimly. I see it all the time. People have their high rolliní dice and low rolliní dice. But since it has an appearance of impropriety, I will discontinue this practice.

Itís a shame that this had to happen. We had a really good game that came down to the wire.

One side note, James, despite what you said, you do need to roll for instinctual behavior every time. If those Gaunts had Lurked, they would have been unable to move in the movement phase and had nothing been in range of their guns, had to run toward cover in the shooting phase.


All quotes were from James Bukas
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krinton
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:03 pm

I actually think the OP played this just about right. Not knowing any of the local players personally, not being from the area, and not knowing anyone's online handle, posting in the general forums seems like a pretty good way to start a dialogue. He didn't attack his opponent personally, and stops short of calling it outright cheating. If I were in his shoes, I don't know how I would have done it any better.

The dice issue is strictly NOT in any way cheating. It is however highly frowned upon. If I saw an opponent using two sets of dice for when they wanted to roll high and another for rolling low, I would probably call them out on that. The real issue is when you have a well documented set of dice that roll low like chessex, that you switch to from your casino style dice (NOTE: I don't know if his opponent was using either) for leadership checks, then that certainly has a sense of impropriety.

It seems like this will be nothing more than a case of he said she said as the two parties attempt to recall an ever fleeting memory of the game. I think you should all put this down as a mental footnote, and move on from there.
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:03 am

I think I Brian first round of CAG bash last year. If its the same dude that I am thinking of.

We had a great time and a great game. If i remember correctly he was playing a really well painted daemon army and I geanstealers everywhere and he crushed me anyway!!! lol

I don't remember any rules problems or even getting the "feeling" of funny business.

So from my experience I would say there must have been some mis-communications there in that game somewhere.

I hope you guys can work it out and have fun playing army men.

These games are way to fun to not be able to have the trust.


my two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Interesting happenstance @ East Side Games and cards today   Today at 9:23 am

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