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 CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon

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ajsnips
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:10 am

What is EGC? Is that another tournament? Or did you mean you wouldn’t get back with me til after cincycon? Which I don't think is the case, because it wouldn’t really make any sense Razz

Anyways, I was asking because two of the armies I've been playing with recently are Tau and Sisters of Battle and I run all the things I mentioned with these two lists. I also have all of the material required. I'd probably bring my sisters, but repressors are a pretty big part of my army considering I play a mech list and have 7.

A repressor works exactly like a rhino with the following exceptions:

-has 6 fire points (only bolters)
-comes with dozer blade
-pintle mounted heavy flamer
-1 model special/heavy can fire out of hatch

Also, repressors are have a description page and section in the WD Sisters codex, but are not in the actual army list portion. In the description though it lists he repressor as having ten fire points and assault ramps. Forge world has since then posted a Facebook message saying the repressor does not have an assault ramp, but did not address the 10 fire points, nor did they address the army wide special rule of a 6++ sv for units and vehicles. So I simply have just been running it out of the IA2 rules listed above with the army wide special rule in the WD codex.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:08 pm

Sorry EGC is Eastside Games and Cards. There is a primer tournament this saturday at noon, sharp. Same rules as CAGBASH but only 3 rounds last month we had 22 players. $10 entry to this tourney. Come check it out and show me your models in action so I can get a better read on them.

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ajsnips
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:12 am

I'll try to make it out there. I can promise anything though. I live in the Columbus area, which isn't to far of a drive, but still require an entire Sat that Im not sure if ill have all free.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:23 am

So forgeworld units are being allowed for Cagbash? My understanding was that the FOC was using standard units and deployments.

I have no problem abiding by whatever rules/regulations are stipulated for the Cagbash event. I’m confident that Makari and the other organizers know their business and will be fair. However, given that this is a tournament level event, I would ask the following:

1: If forgeworld units are allowed, could a list be posted of which units are legal and which ones aren’t? I personally created my list using standard units, but if forgeworld units are legal for the tournament, I would at least like the opportunity to either add those units to my army or prepare for what I potentially might face.

2: For units that are approved for use in the tournament, could you also post the relevant FAQs and Errata (or at least the locations of the documents on the web) so that we can all be on the same page for those units. This is not at all a dig on Ajsnips’ post above, but I would prefer to not have to rely on Facebook postings to deny/confirm rulings on 40k units, especially in a tournament scenario, if only to prevent disagreements at the table.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:53 pm

Originally I stated that 40K approved stamped items were allowed in a list. A few concerns have come up about that descision as of late.
I guess I dropped teh Ball on teh 40K approved thing as I thought it was stated in the opening page. After just checking thru It looks like it was left out.
My intention is not to create an unfair advantage for anyone.
I will be reviewing this matter at this next tournament at EGC. I will make an announce ment that night on the ability to take 40K approved stamped items from the Imperial Armoury Apocolypse book 2....

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baltak
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:26 pm

Just a thought but if you bring that Forge World book itself, not something printed or a PDA of some variety, wouldn't that be like bringing the Codex for your army and allow you to show your opponent before play exactly how that unit functions. Many people here have seen the Forge World units I use in my Ork army but I always have that book with me and let my opponent know about it before we play. I don't want to start any firestorms but I'd like to throw this out there as a compromise. You can get the stats on anything you think you might see off the internet in various sources anyways so if it is a Forge World unit or a conversion that looks like a good adaptation of a particular Forge World item why not allow it, assuming the 40k stamp is on it because Apoc units do not belong.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:57 pm

the issue is that keeps getting brought up is the lack of common knowledge from th ethings from this book. but by the same token im sure not everyone has read the rules from most of the printed codices.

Ill see how things fair in this upcoming tourney get feedback again and go from there.

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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:00 am

From what I have seen from larger events that use "40k approved" items is that the player using said items must have the appropriate IA book on hand, not a photo copy, not a download off the internet, not a hand written description but the actual book for the opponent to look at if need be. This seems to cut down on anyone just throwing in some FW stuff into their lists and their opponent never feeling confident on the rules of said items during the game.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:01 am

You make a good point, Warmonger. However, I don’t think the point you make gets at the heart of the issue. Having the book itself, and any associated FAQs, does go a long way in ensuring that each player understands what a model/unit can or cannot do, which is paramount in a tournament environment. I think everyone wants to be on a level playing field without any rules confusion.

However, I would posit that the real issue is not mis-understanding the rules, but the units themselves. Many of the units, and indeed the Imperial Armor book itself, were designed for play in an Apocalypse style game. Forgeworld has begun to start adding a “40k” approved sticker on some of the units, but I seriously question whether or not their design mantra fits within a “normal” 40k environment.

Let’s use a real example. In the book, the Eldar have a unit called the Wraithseer. For all intents and purposes, it closely resembles a Grey Knights Nemesis Dreadknight, a unit which is widely considered to be very powerful within the normal 40k ruleset. A fully kitted out DK, with teleporter, Greatsword, and Flamer, runs 260 points, more than a landraider. A kitted out Wraithseer has a D-Cannon, toughness 8 (making it immune to small arms fire), power armor, a 5+ invulnerable save, can give FNP to a unit, causes pinning at -2 leadership, re-rolls hits, adds 2 to all vehicle damage chart rolls, reduces cover of enemy units, and is fearless. All of that for 225 points, which is 35 points less than a Dreadknight. And this unit is “40k approved”.

Regardless of whether or not you would consider that over-powered, my point is that there are some units produced by Forgeworld that really beg the question “Is this appropriate for a normal 40k game”? That is the real issue at hand and what causes so much frustration. You can selectively ban units from the book, but you run the risk of playing “designer” at that point and falling down a slippery slope (Why ban Unit A over Unit B? Does that favor Army A over Army B? Are all armies fairly represented with new units/rules? Why only use Imperial Armor and not Imperial Aeronautica? Etc etc etc).
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:40 pm

You make a case Dan but in the end all armies in 40K have some type of cheese that only a particular army can do or have an ability that seems overpowered. Necrons, Tyranids, Orks etc. all can do certain things that other armies can't do so I think it's really not a big deal. There is nothing remotely resembling unkillable in 40k (although Ghazgkull Thraka under a WAAGH with 2+ invul save can get a bit silly) so I don't think that these units should be banned. Change up the tactics a bit on the rare occasions you meet them and blow em up just like any other unit.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:46 pm

I have to agree with Dan on a couple of his points, the forge world models that I have seen seem to be way way underpointed for what they do. You also really cant say some are allowed and others are not that creates issues of its own. But in the end it is up to whoever is hosting the tournament to say either way. My only worry is Id hate to see an event such as cashbash ruined due to such an issue. While yes some armies do have units that go a little beyond the normal sure but not to what I have seen for the forge world. And actual I would argue some armies really do not have anything that pushes the cheese level at all. Course those armies have yet to get an update to their codex so that might change it.
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PostSubject: Forge World Units   Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:13 pm

If everybody feels this much need to complain about Forge World units then fine I won't use them but honestly I think it detracts from competition. No one can truly say that they have no way to get a Forge World unit if they choose to use it be it through conversion or simply paying for it. The rules are not terribly difficult to find either and if you can present the book to your opponent before the match and allow him to read the item being used then the issue doesn't make sense. When we all first learned to play learning about new units and competing against them was fun for the mystery of it. Forge World units are suposed to be rare and mysterious so why shouldn't the wild card be allowed? Several people have played against the Forge World units I use in my army and while the argument can be made about their point cost nobody has complained to the point of saying they are any more unbalanced than many other items/abilities in the 40k universe. Competitive lists are competitive because of their flexibility and inherent redundencies that cover their weaknesses but no list is unbeatable or else there would be no game. Stifling creativity by not allowing Forge World products is doing a disservice to competition where half the point of building an army is creating it the way you want to play it within the rules. These items have been stamped as approved for 40k so I feel they should be allowed but if the majority goes against me on this issue then so be it and I will play an inferior list because I am not allowed to use one of the best tools in my army.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:32 pm

chiming in here. Didn't FW make pdf copies pf certain units that could be printed out? I know when I was looking at coming back to Tau, I was going to use Tetra's and they have official FW PDF doc's you can download. So basically, this wouldn't be allowed then even if I made copies for the other players and or judges?

Cuz I for one, am no way in hell paying over $100 bucks for a book and then bring it to a tourny with a bunch of people I don't know just to thumb through when the clear PDF is available.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:24 pm

If units are allowed I don’t see how you could ban the pdfs when some of the pdfs are the current rules overriding the books. That being said I would say your little grot launchers are way more imbalanced than just about everything in the normal rule books. When you can spend under 500 points and have a theoretical possibility to wipe out a whole army in 1 turn from those 500 points. And have a very decent chance for it, then Yes that is unbalanced by far. I do not feel most people would complain directly to the player, they would however complain to their buddies and to the people they know of the staff managing the game.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:45 pm

That is a dispute but many armies can do things like that. What would necrons do at 500 pts. to many armies.... play tau at a 1000 pts or less when fighting on a long table. All armies can do crazy things when situations are perfect so you adjust your lists accordingly or change your tactical plans. That same army with the tower and 9 launchers played at a tournament up there not long ago against several space marine players and was soundly crushed. It also played against an IG army with punisher cannons and lots of tanks and was practically obliterated turn 1. Do we ban the tanks of the IG next? Dan Bush help me out with the name but that tower list was also trashed by a necron overlord who zoomed across the table on turn 1 playing on the long and trashed 25 lootas, my warlord, and 2 out of 4 sections of my tower on that same turn with some flyby attack out of the necron codex. That is balanced out of the codex and not Forge World at all? Banning things like this is nothing better than a witch hunt for a perceived threat because it is the only unit some people may have ever played against. Proxy some stuff up and try some of the tools all armies ALL the armies have in these books, or find the pdf's, before saying anything is "unfair". If you don't like the units your opponent is playing from their own codex that is not their problemso why should Forge World items be any different? If you sign up to play in a tournament of this variety you have to expect the unexpected and adjust your strategy on the fly to try to win. That's called playing a game and using sound tactics. All armies have something in their codex that someone else could find a reason to complain about so I truly question the validity of the argument presented. Remember these items in question are one shot items and not something that gets to keep up it's function in that manner. They are a tactical strike weapon that is useable once and done. What about fun IG toys like Vulcan punisher cannons on Valkyries, Assault 20 that can stay on the board? The balance in 40K is a perception at best and like the physics can be changed at the whims of players.
If a person can't speak and say they dislike the use of the units that is a problem of their creation. If someone asked me not to use them a second time I would be presented with 3 options, don't play with that player any more, don't use the offending items, or suck it up and find a tactic that beats them and their "overpowered" unit. Depending on the person in question I could make an argument for easily chosing any of these 3 actions.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:59 pm

That in and of itself it a bad argument, and no a 1k tau force even on long board can be beat pretty easily, those long range guns cost a lot of points. The codexs cannot be argued if they are true tournament legal units. A unit out of a codex that is made by a subsidiary company of games workshop, which is not in the codex itself now that is questionable. So what if all armies have units that are in the forge world books that is unbalanced that just proves the point that they were not made for tournaments. There are very few truly unfair ways to play the codex based armies. I play one of the weakest armies currently out there(maybe the weakest) and I can say without any issue I currently have with any codex that I have fought or seen(including necrons which I own the codex) is the whole issue of old codex’s not being able to deal with flyers. And even that I wouldn’t argue is unfair.

You are blowing most of what we are saying way out of perspective.
The question was simply will it be allowed then a few people brought up the issues they saw in allowing it. In the end it is up to whoever is in charge of the tournments to make the call on allowing it or not. In a fun game it isnt so much about whats unbalanced but whats fun.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:34 pm

I will respectfully agree to disagree and leave it at that since we have played and I'd like to do that again but I just do not agree at all.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 pm

at this point think its down to sean on making the call but anyways



In other news finaly got singed up so I wont be last minute Razz Razz Razz
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:54 am

I'll just throw my two cents in here and say that I have never faced a forgeworld unit in a tournament setting that feels balanced. Why? Like most units taken in a tournament, they are taken purely for their killing capabilities, and their potential game changing abilities... but jacked up because it is forge world which has little to no internal balance in it's own right, much less in the world of 40k.

Heck, even in friendly games I have found forgeworld to be more of catalyst for fights and less of a promotor of creativity and "fun." If this were a democracy, I would certainly vote no, but at the end of the day it is up to Sean.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:12 am

Better yet, let me give you an example of the kind of unbalanced power I am talking about. A trygon is a perfect example of how forgeworld rules were overpowered and then reformed to fit into the 40k universe. I know it is against form rules to post actual stat lines but I trust most of us know what a trygon is and what it's stats look like. So here is the difference between the forgeworld trygon and the 40k trygon

WS +1
BS-1
S +2
T +1
W -1
I +1
A -1
Ld +2
Sv same

Not necessarly making it overpowered, but the special rules allow it to

1. Move like a beast
2. Assault from deep strike
3. Make D3 additional attacks with it's tail
4. A better subterranean assault

50 points more than a trygon prime.

If you allow forgeworld, I will be bringing 3 of these without any form of hesitation, not because I want to be a Tickle but because I will feel like I have to in order to compete with everyone else.

But why stop there? I could add in a miotec spore for less than a rhino and get a Str 5 AP 3 large blast that does 2D6 + 5 against vehicles and pins enemy units AND does not scatter.
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:57 am

It wouldnt be just any apoc it would only be 40K approved.

But the Ruling is No Forgeworld even 40K approved. my message box can't handle the load any more...
My apologies if this changes your list but Too many people think it is unfair and not fun. I Want to have a tournament that is fun and fair. ANd the biggest reason is because I didnt post it in the opening rules section like a dolt.

So again NO FORGEWORLD APOC 40K APPROVED for CAGBASH!


If you haven't preregistered please do. Funding this event, even with a venue, while unemployed is difficult!!! I have a ton of great Door prizes for people plus all the great armies people are going to see for best Painted and of course the Army Banners on Parade are going to be fun!!!

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Makian
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:00 pm

I forgot it was a gargantuan creature. Still, the spores would be fine and my dark eldar would gladly bring some of their OP skimmers.

Thank you for clearing this up, I am sure you have made the majority very happy.
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PostSubject: Serious question   Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:27 am

Ok So the Daemons Codex went up for preorder today and will be available Saturday March 2nd. The rules state that the most upto date codex is required...Will we be able to use the Daemons codex that came out on the 2nd and if so how should the list be made seeing as no program will be upto date with the new codex?
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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:57 pm

The 1st page has been updated

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PostSubject: Re: CAGBASH 5 March 1st-3rd 2013, CincyCon   Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:56 pm

Results will be posted about 10pm tonight!!!

It will be updated to Facebook with pictures to Follow as well!!!

Please rember to like us on Facebook!!!

https://www.facebook.com/513CAG

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