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 Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament

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Redbeard
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:24 pm

Yeah, I agree. I don't think I like their rule of an allied detachment being allowed to be from the same faction. I was more just putting all their rules out there to help drive ideas/discussion.


Regarding the two detachment cap, I don't know why this was added. I assume it was implemented to limit people from running cheap HQ/troops in an effort to run three detachments and gain access to nine heavy/elite/fast units (essentially running an unbound list via loophole).

For instance:
Iron Hands triple-CAD list with three techmarines (150 points) and six scout OS units (330 points) and suddenly I unlock the ability to run nine vindicators, all with a 6++ save and regaining hull points on a 5+. Total list cost...1605 points.

I'm not saying the above example is some kind of super-list, but you get the idea...
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:33 pm

Perfect Broken Multiple CAD: Orks
3CADS

1 Big Mek w/Shokk Attack Gun
2 Units of 10 Grots and 1 runtherd
3 Units of 5 Kustom Mega Kannons

x3
1 or 2 Kannon squads can switch to the anti air artillery to hose flyers.
leaves some points left over in 1850!!!

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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:39 pm

I have a single CAD limit
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Redbeard
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:19 pm

Below is an example of a list that uses zero CADs, but still manages to squeeze twelve dreadnoughts and two predator tanks into exactly 1850 points.

BA Detachment #1: Baal Strike Force
HQ: One Techmarine
Elite: Four dreadnoughts
Troops: Two scout units

BA Detachment #2: Baal Strike Force
HQ: One Techmarine
Elite: Four dreadnoughts
Troops: Two scout units

BA Detachment #3: Baal Strike Force
HQ: One Techmarine
Elite: Four dreadnoughts
Troops: Two Scout Units
Heavy: Two predators w/ hunter killer missiles


A similar type of approach could be taken with the detachment out of the DE codex or the SW codex. The DE codex detachment is particularly bad because that one allows six fast attack units per detachment. For example, using three "Realspace Raiders" detachments (and by taking advantage of venoms as dedicated transports), I made a legal 1850 point list that has 22 venoms each with double splinter canons. Those venoms are pumping out a total of 264 poison shots per round at a 36" range. Again, I'm not saying these lists are super-competitive...they definitely have weaknesses (the above dreadnought list would crush the venom list, for instance), but I don't think many people would find these types of lists much fun to play against.

I'm speculating that this is the reason that the 11th company added the two detachment/formation restriction....to minimize these types of shenanigans.
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40Kwill
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:36 pm

Wow there are some odd limits and discussions.
For example a tournament in 2014 that limited the fortifications to those int eh rule book instead of stronghold assault. Apparently the TOs to that tournament don't own the rule book. Because, if they did own it they would have noticed there are no fortifications int eh rule book. That was a 6th (and 2nd edition) thing.
Also, we should get away from the CAD limit and even a discussion of CADs. All of the new codex released to date have powerful non-CAD options. Orcs, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, and Blood Angles all have strong non-CAD options. Sure you get no LoW with them and no objective secured.
Right now if you let me take 2 detachments but limit CADs to 1 my Dark Eldar could field 2 Real Space Raiders with 12 Fast Attack slots (ohhh!) and everything but a LoW in the CAD but that poor Space Marines could only field a CAD and an Allied Space Marine detachment. Why? The TO is still thinking 5th or 6th edition force orgs.
I really feel that limiting detachments does specifically limit and even prevent certain codecies from being played and give a super benefit to others.
I once played Legion of the Damned as my primary codex in a CAG tournament. I can practically promise you will not see them as my primary army again with one allied detachment allowed. Same basically goes for Inquisition, Assassins, and a few others. They are fun and competitive but they can't play on their own or when limited to 1 or two detachments.
The limit just gives certain armies a huge benefit because they can field a really strong and perhaps spam list.
I really don't think many of the proposed spam lists are competitive. I've played 7th edition since week one and never saw a highly successful spam dreadnaught or all drop pod list for example.

Venom spam?
Well I play DE and with 2 Laehmean HQs with venoms 6 troops with vemons and 6 venom fast attacks I can field 14 in a single Realspace Raider detachment.

They would lay waste to Orcs on foot or legions of expensive monsters with crappy saves.
However the much dreaded rhino with 5 guys inside can take out a Venom without fear (unless there is a dark lance in that venom). Any army with transports is totally immune to venom spam unless you put points into a bunch of non-venom units to take out the vehicles. So yeah venom spam could win some games but in the last tournament I went up against the CSM player and the Ork players and both of their armies could have hid the the vehicles until the venoms were destroyed.

Finally the problem with confusing Knights to LoW ans Superheavies is that knights are LoW and Superheavies and they are not at the same time. If you field them as Knight detachments they are Knights but you can also field them as a LoW.
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:40 pm

Change to LoW restriction

No Gargantuan or Super Heavy Lords of War. Players are permitted to use codex Lords of War that are not Gargantuan or Super Heavy.
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cebalrai
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:10 am

dewen wrote:
Change to LoW restriction

No Gargantuan or Super Heavy Lords of War. Players are permitted to use codex Lords of War that are not Gargantuan or Super Heavy.


That's a step in the right direction but why aren't knights banned then because a list with a bunch of them in it is certainly far worse than a Stompa.
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:05 am

I need to draw a line somewhere. I don't want to ban an entire codex. Next tourney, I will probably remove the limitation completely. I think missions and a balanced scoring system levels the playing field.
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cebalrai
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:39 am

dewen wrote:
I need to draw a line somewhere. I don't want to ban an entire codex. Next tourney, I will probably remove the limitation completely. I think missions and a balanced scoring system levels the playing field.


Diverse mission types are definitely the most graceful way of handling this sort of thing. Maelstrom alone does a whole lot to minimize S-heavy power because armies with low model count are less capable of completing those objecties (depends on what cards are drawn but overall I think it's true).

If someone really wants to abuse the rules though, they're going to do it no matter what restrictions are put in place, so the amount of spammy abusive stuff is more a factor of the player base than the tournament rules.

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justin.cress
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:51 pm

What kinds of missions can we expect? Will maelstrom be used for some/all of the rounds?
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:50 pm

Sorry for the delayed reply...We ran Maelstrom in Nov so I think I will mix it up and not run it in Jan. There will be some objective based missions and some new and creative ways of scoring points to win matches.
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:54 pm

Sample Objective-Mission-Score Sheet

Get ready for new objectives and missions to challenge your playing skills and strategy
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:24 am

justin.cress wrote:
What kinds of missions can we expect?  Will maelstrom be used for some/all of the rounds?

Bring your Maelstrom cards. I may have one or two using Maelstrom cards. Finalizing missions soon.
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Jaysic
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:47 pm

How many signups do we have?
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:14 pm

Hard to tell. A couple Martial Law guys said they are coming. I heard three of the Cinci/EGC gamers mentioned attending, that includes you Jaysic. There could be more from EGC/Cinci. There is a signup sheet in the store with 5-6 players. One Dayton player withdrew last minute. Gamers can be fickle, but I would guess more than we had in Nov, which was 8.

If some of the Cinci guys were headed up I75 and wanted to car pool, I live half way between Cinci and Dayton. It would have to be early because I am setting up. I plan on arriving when the shop opens at 1000. I could drive my wife's roomy SUV for gamers and minis.
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justin.cress
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:49 am

Is there a risk attendees will exceed slots available?

I'd be bummed if I didn't get to play after driving from NKY. I'll try to get there early.

RE: Carpool, If anyone wants me to pick them up on my way north hit me up on FB. (Or here, but I don't tend to check here as often)
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:27 am

The capacity is 16 with 8 tables. I doubt we will exceed that. If we reach it, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Arriving on time should secure your spot. Right now I think we're at about 12 but there could be forum creepers or last minute sinups.
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:14 pm

If you would like to read the Missions and new Objectives, HERE they are. I will have score sheets with tracking or tally methods printed and ready to go for each mission.


Last edited by dewen on Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:18 pm

I regret using the term "spam" and I am sorry. I just don't want to see folks showing up with Internet lists using formation or detachment A 15 times in their list. All in all, everyone that has been attending and that I think will be attending, it is NOT an issue.

No one is going to consider a jet bike or SM bike list spam. That would be saying you can't bring your Ravenwing. I don't think anyone considers DA Ravenwing broken. I'd know because I have been tabled playing with mine Smile

Going forward there will be very few limitations, if any. I think the missions will level the battlefield for players to bring what they have.

You can always PM your ideas about your list and I will give you feedback, if needed
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justin.cress
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:35 pm

These missions look like a ton of fun. A couple of quick observations,

Seize and deny looks really awesome.

Just for clarity, the 1 point earned for dedicated transports applies to all dedicated transports, not just those taken by troops?
If so, I'd recommend placing 'dedicated transport' on its own bullet, just to avoid any confusion. (You *might* assume because there's no '1 elite, dedicated transport (one each)' that transports taken by elite slots don't count.)

In blood dawn objectives "the two on the center line" obviously refers to the two objectives being placed outside the deployment zone, but nothing requires them to be "on the center line". The image makes it clear, but in the text it isn't obvious which two objectives are worth two points.

Also, " The Center Objective Marker is worth 3 points toward scoring Victory Conditions " conflicts with the special rule "midway boost" ?
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:25 pm

justin.cress wrote:
These missions look like a ton of fun.  A couple of quick observations,
Thanks for reviewing and providing feedback.

justin.cress wrote:

Seize and deny looks really awesome.  
I playtested and made slight adjustments. I thought this objective was very fun.

justin.cress wrote:

Just for clarity, the 1 point earned for dedicated transports applies to all dedicated transports, not just those taken by troops?
If so, I'd recommend placing 'dedicated transport' on its own bullet, just to avoid any confusion.  (You *might* assume because there's no '1 elite, dedicated transport (one each)' that transports taken by elite slots don't count.)
Excellent point. In your opinion should the dedicated transport be treated as the same type as the model type taking it? Troop takes a dedicated transport, then the dedicated transport is a troop.  Elite, then its elite...and so on. A drop pod is more easily destroyed than the dread that took it. IIRC termies can take land raiders, which are tough to completely destroy. This would probably be the simpler the implementation and seems more inline with 7th.

OR

Should dedicated transports be worth 1 overall?

justin.cress wrote:

In blood dawn objectives "the two on the center line" obviously refers to the two objectives being placed outside the deployment zone, but nothing requires them to be "on the center line". The image makes it clear, but in the text it isn't obvious which two objectives are worth two points.
I'll add clarification

justin.cress wrote:

Also, " The Center Objective Marker is worth 3 points toward scoring Victory Conditions " conflicts with the special rule "midway boost" ?
Good catch. I will correct and update the link.


Last edited by dewen on Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:30 pm

I discussed the Unit Attrition objective with Makari. For dedicated transports, we'll go with as assigned to unit taking the transport. This fits with 7th IMO and was my intent in my original draft of the objective.

Dedicated transports count as having the same role (Warhammer 40,000 rulebook pg. 82).
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:21 pm

Corrections made and posted. Links are the same
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keeblerpowell
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:07 pm

can you sign me up?

I didn't know we could pre-register....
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dewen
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PostSubject: Re: Hobby Shop (Dayton) Jan 24th 40K Tournament   Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:27 pm

keeblerpowell wrote:
can you sign me up?

I didn't know we could pre-register....

You're in Sean. Just be on time.
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