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Matt
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PostSubject: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:23 am

So, with the release of the DA, BA and Chaos I have a question.

As each DA has a bolt pistol, as per WYSIWIG I believe you need to have these represented on each and every model. With Chaos it gets even worse, you need a bolt pistol and a chainsword... oh and a bolter.

A little silly IMO, i was wondering what people have read/heard on the matter... Any rulings in the new GT rule pdfs?
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JMarv
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:20 am

I have a similar issue with my troops with jamming close combat weapons all over them. I wish that small items could be ignored a la grenades. (Although I did find a cool arm with a grenade in it so one of my guys looks like he's about to lob a frag grenade)
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:05 am

It's very strange, and it seems GW isn't even following their own rule.

Not every man in the new DA, BA or Chaos codex is holding a bolt pistol and a bolter and a chainsword (chaos).

Can you even imagine how stupid a chaos marine would look with a bolt pistol and chainsword, while having a bolter strapped to him.

It would be one thing if the models were different, but the models right now can't hope to hold all these weapons without looking stupid.
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JMarv
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:11 am

Yeah, I was relieved when someone informed me that I don't have to actually glue tiny little grenades on every guy in my army's belt. Still, I have lots of combat knives glued to backpacks and legs.

Everyone is going to have to chop out the arms so that they hold a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and have the pistol in holster bit on their leg.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:13 am

exactly, but GW normally do a good (alright decent-ish) job of showing exactly what a model has. At least in the codex. This hasn't been the case in the recent releases.

Still want to see an official ruling on it. Or at least a GT rules pdf
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Perdair
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:46 pm

I think that the grenades and melta bombs can be in the leather pouches that most marines have, no? I'd say the same for things like scanners and stuff.

I think that as far as the pistols and CCW and bolters go, you only need to have them on the model if you're gonna use them.

My DA tactical guys are gonna have bolters. Since they don't have true grit, there is no reason to stick a pistol or CCW on them, so I won't.

The Grey Hunters I painted years ago had true grit, so I glued knives to them, or altered their arms so I could add a chainsword, etc, because I wanted to justify getting the extra attack.

My favorite modification, and I'm going to do this for some of my DA Assault marines (because I used the arms for Blood Claws), is to use a 2nd pistol as the CCW. It's just visual - it doesn't shoot any different, but it was easy to chop an angle in the arms to get them sticking out John Woo style, and then the shoulder pads cover the cuts nicely.

Chris
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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:15 pm

WYSIWYG is only really important if there is something to get confused about.
Since CSM don't have any options, there isn't really anything to be confused about.
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:38 pm

wysiwyg is from my understanding for things like tau chrsis suits since they only have some 200 differnt ways to modify and change them and of course tanks and such. But as for units like marines when you cant change anything(even blood angels comes to mind) except for things like specail/heavy weopens you relly cant change them so I see no reason why they woulndt be fine missing the pistol and combat weopen
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:40 pm

Perdair: something worth noting now, is that all DA marines have a bolt pistol and bolter by default.

I'm a fan of the second pistol as two ccw too. looks very cool.

I'd agree with Marc too. Which btw, seems to be the way GW are handling the recent codex releases and their potential effect on WYSIWIG

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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:50 pm

The rule needs to go. I think Anything smaller then a bolter can go either way. If not....make modifying sprues???

Maybe multiple versions of the one character. That's why I like the Space Marice Captain. He had a wide range of different ways you could build him.
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Tyler
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:15 am

well if it is in there rules I think they should have it no matter what, the representing(sp) rule was made for heavy weapons and options so you couln't cheat them.
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Perdair
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:11 am

I think we'd all probably agree that the primary reason for the WYSIWYG rule is to make sure we all buy lots of GW, Citadel and Forge World products.

Under no circumstances would they want me to play my heavy bolter and tell my opponent ahead of time - "this is a plasma cannon, I stuck this little "p" sticker on it to make sure we remember."

The reason they'll tell you they made the rule is to make sure that there's no confusion about what unit does what, switching during the game, etc. They'll tell you that building a complete army is an important part of the hobby. These things are both true, but the main reason is still $$.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:16 am

Well the reason the hobby exists is money.

I would still say we can get away with not having to represent a bp on every single guy in a DA or BA army.

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Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:41 am

I agree.....if it's that small.....who cares.....if it's a plasma gun.....there's ways around it.....like straping a plasma gun to a Cadian Stormtroopers back like I did with my Knights.
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JMarv
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:46 am

Perdair, just so you know, because all your guys come with BP, and bolter and CCW as Matt said, you can use your bolter some times, and then effectively drop it to use BP + CCW in close combat. It is even possible to shoot the 1 pistol shot before charging. (depending on your view of the models carrying a rapid fire weapon... line in the rules, however I think this is being FAQed)
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:55 pm

Yeah that one is a strange one John.

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Perdair
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:01 pm

I only see that the DA Tac squad comes with:

Power Armor
Bolt Pistol
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Bolter

They don't get a CCW by default. The sarge can drop his bolter for a CCW.

I really can't see any reason to have a bolter and a bolt pistol on the same model that doesn't have a CCW (which these tac guys don't)

Am I reading this correctly?
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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm

Perdair wrote:
I really can't see any reason to have a bolter and a bolt pistol on the same model that doesn't have a CCW (which these tac guys don't)

Gives you the option of squeezing off a round before the charge using a Bolt Pistol (..say to get that Vet Sgt with a Power Fist stuck in) or not charge and instead Rapid Fire with your Bolter.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:40 pm

Perdair, i was bring up the CCW weapon as new chaos marines DO have all three. a BP, CCW and a Bolter

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Perdair
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:16 am

So I was thinking about this whole "bolters and bolt pistols" included with a TAC squad in the Dark Angels codex and I just have to think it's a mistake that will be corrected -

- otherwise, like stated above, I could have all my bolter guys shoot with pistols and run into assault, which seems a bit broken.

- even worse, my heavy weapon guys would be able to use their pistols when they've moved, and this just doesn't seem proper.

Also, I'm not sure I'm cool with WYSIWYG as far as melta bombs go. If you look at the inside cover of the DA codex, they've got the captain and sergeants listed as having melta bombs, but I see none on the models. I really don't want to glue them to the models. I may paint a couple up and use some clay or silly putty to stick them to the models when I need them.

Finally, I bought the DA feather hat captain. His pistol is visible only as a holster, and he can't really be modded, so is that holster WYSIWYG enough to be a bolt pistol, plasma pistol, or even a combi weapon?

I know playing you guys I could get away with all of this, but what would they say in a tourney?

Lastly, in looking through the small rulebook, I couldn't actually find the WYSIWYG rules at all - are they in there? Page number?
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:48 am

It's definitely not a mistake Perdair

- The reason you state it is broken is the exact reason it is in there. It's a change that will happen to all marines as they redo books.

- No clue why you don't think a marine could choose to use a pistol instead of the weapon he is carrying.

- Proof that it is indeed as intended is already out there, the new Blood Angel codex includes the same change. So does the new Chaos codex, but to a greater degree (they also get a CCW!)

As far as bombs go, at GT's they are perfectly fine with them not being modeled. So I think grenades are fine. They are also fine with a holster being a WYSIWIG bolt pistol, but I doubt they would be ok with it being a combi weapon. I'd use a mix of the DA upgrade sprue and the Space Marine Commander plastic set.

WYSIWIG is also not a rule, but rather a gaming standard. Without it I could call any weapon whatever I like. When I line up my army and you make decisions based upon what I am deploying (what weapons they are carrying, etc) you could be making all kinds of mistakes... What I mean is, a model has to show what it is equipped with, otherwise the game would fail.

In most tournaments and friendlies, just warning the other player that so and so is equipped with a Plasma Pistol works. Just let them know it's in a holster etc. Same goes with Tactical marines, let people know they all have bolt pistols.

Most tournament players will assume your troops have the codex gear. They all know every list backwards and forwards. In friendlies it is always nice to get a run - down however.

I always make sure to explain anything that could cause trouble as I deploy.

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Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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Perdair
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:05 am

I guess I shouldn't complain about things that actually help me Smile

I'm just not sure I feel right about moving the missile launchers in my tactical squads and then have them shoot pistols, but heck, I might as well if I can get away with it, and it sounds like I can!

I really don't want to stick pistols on everyone, but I guess I could if I had to - (read - if my opponent complained.)

I could silly-putty stuff on the models last minute from my bits box if needed.
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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:11 am

From page 1 then..

Marc wrote:
WYSIWYG is only really important if there is something to get confused about.
Since CSM don't have any options, there isn't really anything to be confused about.

..same for DA, BA yada yada.

Your DA Bolt Pistols are standard kit. You have no choice. Only if there is a choice does WYSIWYG come into play.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: WYSIWIG discussion   Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:15 am

Thanks for the clarification Marc.

Saved Perdair from sticking putty all over his pretty little men!

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Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
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