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 Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG

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JMarv
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PostSubject: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:06 am

Ok, so Ryan and Steve and I all had a debate on Saturday regarding skimmers. Ryan thought that since they float they always have line of sight over interposing terrain. Steve thought (at least then) that skimmers can elect to move upwards in height as well as around the table in horizontal distance, thereby determining their line of sight. From his last post and my looking at the rulebook we all seem not to believe this now. The only rules I can see regarding this question come from pages 61 and 64. On page 61 it states that skimmers can move over terrain without penalty and may even end their turn hovering above said terrain. This has two effects in my opinion. First it means they never have to worry about terrain tests - fine. Secondly, depending on how said terrain was modeled, they could gain some height by sitting on the bunker, or the forest or whatever. It also says in the rules that while hovering over terrain they cannot be obscured, however if they are behind the terrain I believe they still would. But while not over modeled terrain, I believe that skimmers are intended to stay close to the ground. Unfortunately it only alludes to this in the fluffyish sections about skimmers not really flying and staying a few meters above the ground, but it isn't truly a rule. The next rule comes from pg. 64 where it says that all vehicles draw line of sight for shooting from the gun mount. I believe this would include skimmers as well.
So in summary, I think that skimmers have to be able to draw true line of sight from the gun mount to the target while actually sitting on something on the table. If there is something higher than the flat surface to sit like a hill or a bunker or a forest, that's cool too and will give better line of sight. This really becomes an issue when dealing with area terrain especially the kind that is not modeled. If a hammerhead wants to float over a forest that isn't modeled, how high is the hammerhead? It sounds like we should get together and make enough terrain that it is all wysiwyg and stop using the two corners of a ruin blob of area terrain. What are everyone's thoughts on this, cause it is confusing and I would like us to all be playing the same rules.
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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:35 am

How I have played my skimmers is this, they do not have to take any terrrain tests like a normal tank would have to for danagerous since they hover over, and then it is sitting a few inches above the terrain(in other words just on top of the tree tops of whereever it is sitting) I agree if a skimmer is behind the terrain it would still count as obsucred.....guess Ill have to rig my skimmer bases up again and figure out a way to kepp them from breacking.
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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:03 pm

I have to agree that I think you measure range and LOS from the gun barrel.

It would be cool to build WYSIWYG terrain. So do you think we should all build somethings at home? I would like to get a group together so we can all do a theme. It would be cool if we had complementing terrain.
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Makari
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:26 pm

I've always allowed skimmers against me to do the Pop up rule that was in an old edition.
I just interpreted skimmers to be able to do it seeing as they can't be obscured...

***Off topic ish, should it be moved?***
I personally can't stand area terrain. I think it takes away from the skill and majesty of the terrain and presents too many illogical situations.

I'm up for having a terrain building day or days. For sure not at a store...
And maybe even have a couple of locations to do it for us east siders, the crazy westsiders, snobby northsiders, and all the belly button lint inbetween... Razz so there won't be any issue of having to travel too far.
Ex Davis Trans in Milford has an excellent selection of stuff for terrain making. I'll be picking up a bunch soon for terrain for our tourney.

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FrostWolf
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:42 pm

since we are on that topic, yea sure why not I have a ton of the styrophome stuff a comptuer is shipped in that can be used for terrain or whatever I feel like useing it as, and some other differnt things I have sitting around I could use to make into terrain
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:36 pm

The pop up rule no longer exists. So don't use it Smile

Skimmers CAN hide behind size three terrain, they just never block line of sight themselves.

Area terrain exists to simplify the game. Too often in old editions (especially in pick up games) people would have disagreements about line of sight.

On Page 61 you see that Skimmers ignore terrain altogether when they move. It goes on to add that they never obtain the bonus from being an obscured target when hovering OVER terrain. Implying that they do gain it if behind terrain. We must believe they are treated as size 3 vehicles in this regard as no where in the book does it say anything else. Thus they can hide behind size 3 area terrain.

Now with LOS terrain they will normally be easy to spot because of their elevated position (talking from a modeling stand point).

You measure range and LOS from their guns just like any other vehicle.

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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:29 pm

Times like this it seems the F&S boys have figured it out Laughing

I'm all for adapting their simplistic approach in regards to terrain.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:52 pm

I agree, for the most part it makes complete sense. At least until 5th comes out (who knows we might get better guidelines).

I still think LOS should be used for obvious things like low walls, hedges, hills, rock outcrops etc.

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Marc
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:01 pm

Matt wrote:
I still think LOS should be used for obvious things like low walls, hedges, hills, rock outcrops etc.

aye
I say we create an official CAG errata in regards to several topics such as terrain, Wulfen, etc
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:19 pm

that would be a good idea. I have always played that pretty much skimmers always have line of sight to things, as well as things always having line of sight to skimmers. thats been the easy way, yet there ought to be some clarification.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:02 pm

It seems you have played that way because others around you have. Read the rules and that simply isn't the case.

Off topic but... Ryan I'll be living with Mike down in clifton this quarter so I can give you a ride when we go to game.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:21 pm

that last post was the most exciting, riveting, lovely thing i have ever read on CAG. Thank you for that invigorating piece of information, matt!

seriously.

sweet.
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Matt
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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:02 pm

Plus the parties will be awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Skimmers and Shooting - Lets get this settled for CAG   Today at 9:36 am

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