Salamander Space Marines

IMO... anything armor 10 all the way around totally sucks! You need to also go flat out to receive a cover save and you can't always rely on terrain to give you one. Deep striking too close and you're toast from even small arms fire. Like I said ...swatting flies.

DUME is right they die way to quick, even against bolters

Bikes and Assault squads are the best Fast Attack Choices cause they survive for a long time if you know how to use them and they can perform pretty much any role, Close Combat, Tank Hunters, etc.

Ricter wrote:

Honestly, I'm going to have to disagree. Land Speeders are probably the best Fast Attack choice for C:SM, hands down.

Bike squads aren't worth it unless you have a captain on a bike, and then they're not FA anymore.

Attack bikes die easier, have less weapon options, less maneuverability, no deepstrike option, and can get bogged down by terrain and assault, for only 10 less points.

Assault Squads are mediocre at best since they can't score anymore. Their idea setup - 2x flamers - doesn't do much more damage than then heavy flamer from the LS, and cost a lot more points.

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.


You guys probably arnt looking at the overall awesomeness of the landspeeder, its amazing and so many roles including suicide. I dont know if I feel like trying to convince you but id seriously rethink your opnion if you dont think the speeder is awesome.

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Sorry guys but I have to fanboy with ricter on this one.

Color me purple, I just don't believe it!

Disagree about the speeders. I think they are too easy to take out to be worth the point values. Couple that with the fact that, unlike Bikers or Assault troops, they don't have any kind of armour save, and I'd much rather take either of those as a means to tie something up.

I guess I'm not a huge fan of the idea of "suiciding" units; if I'm paying the points for them, I'd rather have them be survivable.

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

Let us all bow to the almighty professor.

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that.

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that.

Are you really oblivious to how much you rub people the wrong way in this community?

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

wittdooley wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Well this alone speaks volumes of your tactics.

FYI, playing tag along when someone is joking at their own expense, sorta voids the joke, don't know if anyone ever told ya that.

Kind of like how no must have told ya that a fast moving 60 pt multi melta is an extremly viable.

And I mispoke, as its role is alpha strike not suicide. Il have to hold class some other day though.

My bad. I guess it's hard to tell when you're sucking him off with all the ass kissing you've done before.

The huge amount of douchebaggery that you exhibit is the primary reason I NEVER want to play with you.

You probably won't have to worry about that.

Are you really oblivious to how much you rub people the wrong way in this community?

I'd encourage you to consider stopping the name calling - it just makes you look childish.

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, consider actually addressing the points at hand. Especially considering this community values a clean discussion board, something you are no doubt aware of.

With regards to bikes - they're a fantastic unit. But if you're going to take them, you might as well take a captain on a bike, meaning that they're Troops instead, and no longer compete with Land Speeders, giving you the best of both worlds.

Assault Squads aren't a bad unit by themselves, they just cost way too many points for what they do. 210 points for a unit with just 10 bodies and two flamers, compared to a speeder which is only 60 points with a heavy flamer - meaning you can get nearly 4 speeders for the price of one assault squad.

And really, what edition are you playing? Dying to bolter fire doesn't really apply anymore, since you can't destroy on a glance without bonuses. Just to humor you, I'll run the numbers anyways.

18 BS 4 shots is 12 hits. 2 of which will glance, meaning only 1/3 will actually cause lasting damage. In order to actually down the speeder, they need three of these hits (I'm going by memory, they may only need two, or average 2.5), meaning on average it takes 54 BS 4 bolter shots to down a single landspeeder.

18 BS 4 shots is 12 hits, S4 vs T4 is 6 wounds. 2 marines die to a salvo, meaning that they will need 5 turns to down the assault marines squad, or 90 shots.

At first glance, this implies that the assault marines are tougher - until you realize you can have 4 land speeders for the same cost, averaging 216 shots to take down - significantly more than the marines. On top of this, the marines will also eventually be making morale checks to stay in the game, something the speeders don't have to deal with. Another weapon on the speeder also has the potential to drag out the time for a kill even longer.

There are other variables of course. In the Land Speeder's favor, they can make their own cover save, are immune to s3 or less, have a longer effective range, never have to make morale and are significantly less vulnerable to template weapons. ASM can make better use of cover (although they can't make their own) and don't get hurt as much by a stray lucky shot.

Thanks Ricter, once again your alot better with words than I. I just didnt have the energy to try to explain all the mathhammer at that time.

To the people who dont like me:
I am sorry if I accidently rub people the wrong way but I think its alot better than purposely name calling. I am not trying to continue this arguing, hell I wast even trying to argue. But if you kindly reread your posts and reread mine I never resorted to falacio references or anything other than colorful defences as you were obviously trolling my post.

I especially like the part were you say I'm "kissing ricters ass" because I strongly agree with his mindset towards the game.

I also enjoy the fact that I make a comments about how peoples opinions about 40k differ from my own and suddenly i'm a "douchbag?"

You really shouldn't generalise someone because of the way they give advice in reference to a game. In a sense i'd say its quite the opposite, as who is really deserving of a such a title? The person who comes off bad when typing in reference to a fun game? Or the person name calling and naturally assuming the other person is a terrible human being because of a post on the internet?

Either way, I find your responses...amusing? And look forward to them with great interest.

I play WARHAMMER not mathhammer, as do 90% (or more) of other players out there. Statistics and probabilities don't mean squat to me and play no part in my decision making regarding the way I make my list or use my tactics. Trial and error, experience and maybe a little of what "looks cool". But really, there's no need to throw out those numbers, it actually makes that part of the post rather boring IMO.

Back to the original post:
You actually can still drop an armor 10 vehicle with small arms fire. Enough glances will still down the vehicle. Yes it may be hard to get that many 6's, but it's not impossible with a a sufficiant amout of shots, ie a squad of 10 marines double tapping. For some armies this is the only way they can destroy armor 14 vehicles.

The assault issue also stands true. Land speeders can't assault, whereas the bikes and marines can. You can give them more punch by throwing a sgt in with them with maybe a fist.

I give you my 2 cents from experience not running numbers and probabilities.

Let us all remember that on these forums it's all about opinions. A wise man once said:
Opinions are like a#*holes, everyone's got one and most of them stink.

I agree with 100% DUME

archite666 wrote:

Thanks Ricter, once again your alot better with words than I. I just didnt have the energy to try to explain all the mathhammer at that time.

To the people who dont like me:
I am sorry if I accidently rub people the wrong way but I think its alot better than purposely name calling. I am not trying to continue this arguing, hell I wast even trying to argue. But if you kindly reread your posts and reread mine I never resorted to falacio references or anything other than colorful defences as you were obviously trolling my post.

I especially like the part were you say I'm "kissing ricters ass" because I strongly agree with his mindset towards the game.

I also enjoy the fact that I make a comments about how peoples opinions about 40k differ from my own and suddenly i'm a "douchbag?"

You really shouldn't generalise someone because of the way they give advice in reference to a game. In a sense i'd say its quite the opposite, as who is really deserving of a such a title? The person who comes off bad when typing in reference to a fun game? Or the person name calling and naturally assuming the other person is a terrible human being because of a post on the internet?

Either way, I find your responses...amusing? And look forward to them with great interest.

Dude, you obviously don't read your own posts if you don't understand how smarmy and holier than thou they actually are. "I'll have to hold class some other time." "Well that alone speaks volumes of your tactics."

These are all completely douchebag comments. I was fine having the conversation about SALAMANDERS SPACE MARINES and what they would and would not field until you made your first off-handed personal dig. Then you go kiss Ricters ass--which from your forum posts, is completely in character--which is hilarious to quite a few of us that actually play together, you know, in person, and not simply on calculators and forums.

The guys on here have met me, they know me, they've hung out with me. I'm a lot less concerned with one or two off-color comments than you should be because I count the majority of the people on this forum as friends. If that's your goal, then stop being a smarmy toolbox; if your goal lies elsewhere, perhaps you should post on another forum. I hear Dakka Dakka is great for people that know everything.

You fail to realise my "swarmy" comments come AFTER the trolls. Do you really fail to see that I say those things on purpose?

I make an opinion, you troll my post, I make a blatent attempt to sound arrogant as hell, you start name calling and looking childish.

Thats our conversations in a nutshell how I see them.

I think you really need to take a step back to see who is the one actually acting like a "toolbox" Saying you disagree with someones opinions about 40k (you know.. a normal part of what some would call a "discussion") and being extremly valgur and saying they "suck cock" are two totally different extremes.

You may think I "type" in a fashion that belittles you, which is extremly subjective anyway. We could argue how you read my posts all day. But what is not subjective is the way you respond to it like your 13 years old all the while acting like your defending your homeland when really I was simply expression my opinions, just not to your likely as instead of wasting time typing things like "IMHO, I think this would be better, yotta yotta" I simply type straight to the point.

STOP IT! ALL OF YOU! YOU'RE TEARING THIS FAMILY APART!

And to think all this started over a Land Speeder

lol indeed.

In the grim future... there is only pointless arguing....

Pointless arguing and raging homo/nazi/pirates (AKA Dark Eldar)

and mass anilation of planets due to pointless arguing

LOCKED

Pretty obvious why!

Please guys, keep on topic. If a new topic comes up during the original discussion then let's create a new post please instead of derailing the original.

Oh, and everyone here. Play nice! No name calling and no swearing please! Kiddies are afoot (i think.)

Happy gaming

[-matt]