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Bojesphob
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Bojesphob

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PostSubject: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 10:51 pm

Ok, here is a revised list, critiques please!

Vampire Lord
Abyssal Terror
Avatar of Death (Heavy Armor, Shield, Hand Weapon)
Sword of Battle (+1 Attack)
Forbidden Lore (using Beast Magic)

Necromancer on Corpse Cart w/ Balefire

Necromancer

Skeletons x45
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Dead Legion (makes unit count as 90 strong Smile )

Vampire
Avatar of Death (Heavy Armor, Shield, Hand Weapon)
Battle Standard w/ Drakenholf Banner (unit gains regeneration)
(I figure I'll attach this fellow to the 90 count skeleton unit, and that unit will be VERY hard to kill!)

2x Skeletons x30
2x Champion
2x Musician
2x Standard Bearer

Grave Guard x10
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer
Great Weapons

Grave Guard x10
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shields

Black Knights x10
heck Knight
Musician
Standard Bearer

_________________
A tiny portion of humanity turned its back on mankind in the waning days of the last Golden Age. Over one and a half centuries later, the PHR has emerged from the shadows as an unrecognisable civilisation, its people irrevocably changed. They are no longer simple human beings, they are post-humans - cyborgs.

VC 2500 Take 2 0816091714
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Evil Bob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 4:19 am

Bojesphob wrote:

Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Dead Legion
As of July that item no longer exists for the Vampire Counts.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1310262a_FAQ_VampireCounts_2010_v11.pdf

It looks like GW is doing a systematic cleansing of anything to do with "Unit Strength" in the game. So this isn't army hate or anything.

Banner of Engless Nightmare would work too. A 4th Rank bonus doesn't sound as sexy but its still pretty good.
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Evil Bob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 5:30 am

Bojesphob wrote:
Ok, here is a revised list, critiques please!

Vampire Lord
Abyssal Terror
Avatar of Death (Heavy Armor, Shield, Hand Weapon)
Sword of Battle (+1 Attack)
Forbidden Lore (using Beast Magic)
Are you sacrificing vampiric powers and magic times to get a mount?

I could see using that Lord setup to lurk in the rear or flank and join in a multiple charge (into the side of a unit to limit response). Although my nerves would be on edge waiting for war machine, magic, and/or massed range fire to end things. The 4+ armor save alone is not going to hold.
Bojesphob wrote:
Necromancer on Corpse Cart w/ Balefire
Necromancer
The last edition made Necromancers marginal at best and in general useless when compared to vampires. With the new magic rules it is hard to say. Magic Level isn't as oppressively important as it was. Being able to buy VDM is nice if one has the spare power dice to roll for it.

Also that Corpse Cart is 100 points right out of your Heroes budget. That's a Vampire or a Wight Lord with The Sword of Kings. The Corpse Cart can be bought with no category army points, just nix 13 skeletons from a unit.

I'd be more inclined to horde the power dice for the Lord, some bound items, and then use Vampire Thralls as my spare dispell lackey thugs who can still throw a punch.

One thing the new rules have me looking at is using Wight Lords. Since the rat race for Magic Levels (Power Dice) is gone my Krell miniature might make it back on the table inside a unit of Grave Guard with great weapons.
Bojesphob wrote:
Skeletons x45
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer w/ ?
Nice, fits in with the current system in several ways. Are they going with the five man front or the ten model Horde?
Bojesphob wrote:
Vampire
Avatar of Death (Heavy Armor, Shield, Hand Weapon)
Battle Standard w/ Drakenholf Banner (unit gains regeneration)
Consider sticking him in with your great weapon armed Grave Guard to bolster their lack of shields. Or if you can swing the points set his vamperic powers to Dread Knight and Infinite Hatred (or Walking Death).
Bojesphob wrote:
2x Skeletons x30
2x Champion
2x Musician
2x Standard Bearer
For two units isn't this over 500 points in core? Or is it a typo?
Bojesphob wrote:
Grave Guard x10
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer
Great Weapons

Grave Guard x10
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer
Shields

Black Knights x10
heck Knight
Musician
Standard Bearer
Good spread. The current rules for raising dead make the Grave Guard excellent. Just spiffy for chopping down those annoying talking trees that seem to bash up Black Knights.

With how the rules now allow for ranks to step forward and get attacks off adding another rank of Grave Guard (15x total) might be worth the points. Close Combat is more lethal now. In 7th edition a ten man unit night survive to be repaired in a magic phase. With so many more dice being thrown attrition rates are going to increase.

The Black Knights at ten models looks good. They are point heavy enough and being non-infantry if one is going to invest points in them it should be done with careful thought. i used to run them in single rank seven models (since second ranks didn't attack).

Getting the Banner of the Barrows for the Great Weapon Unit or Black Knights is something to consider.
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Bojesphob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 10:16 am

Thanks, Angry Bob, I had forgotten that there was an FAQ on each of the armies... Sad I changed it to the Endless Nightmare! Smile

Also, I took the Corpse Cart off of the Necromacer, I hadn't thought of the fact it would go against the hero costs.

I don't know if I follow your question about the skeletons.... I have 3 units of skeletons, 1 at 45 strong, and 2 at 30 apiece. I guess I should have just copied and pasted it instead of doing a 2x... But, since it says "At least 25%" for core, this ends up being 970 points, which is 38.8%, so that's ok, right? (I don't have the rulebook yet)

Also don't know about whether I would use the 45 skeleton unit as 10x rows or 5x. If I do 10x, wouldn't I want to do 50 so I have 5x rows?

Anyhow, would this fare better?

Vampire Lord
Abyssal Terror
Flayed Hauberk (2+ armor save)
Sword of Battle (+1 Attack)
Forbidden Lore (using Beast Magic)
Wristbands of Black Gold (3+ Ward save vs. missile attacks of any kind)
Dark Acolyte (Extra magic level)

Corpse Cart

Skeletons x45
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Endless Nightmare

Skeletons x30
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer

Skeletons x30
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer

Grave Guard x20
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Barrows
Great Weapons

Vampire
Dread Knight
Walking Death


Black Knights x10
heck Knight
Musician
Standard Bearer

Wight King
Skeletal Steed with Barding
Sword of Kings

_________________
A tiny portion of humanity turned its back on mankind in the waning days of the last Golden Age. Over one and a half centuries later, the PHR has emerged from the shadows as an unrecognisable civilisation, its people irrevocably changed. They are no longer simple human beings, they are post-humans - cyborgs.

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Evil Bob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 10:40 pm

Bojesphob wrote:
I don't know if I follow your question about the skeletons.... I have 3 units of skeletons, 1 at 45 strong, and 2 at 30 apiece. I guess I should have just copied and pasted it instead of doing a 2x... But, since it says "At least 25%" for core, this ends up being 970 points, which is 38.8%, so that's ok, right? (I don't have the rulebook yet)
Technically it is. And I am very glad they brought back the percentages system to try and shoehorn in more core choices for all armies. Way too many pressures to min/max in the old system. That being said....

Skeletons are one of, if not the worst pointed core in the game. Humans who are half the cost will hit on 3s, go before VC core in regular initiative. Just saying if two units are at equal point values the humans are two to one (four to one possible with skaven) in unit size. If you win combat odds are they outnumber you and will suffer no penalties on break tests. If they win you lose even more skeletons for being unstable.

But don't worry you still have Fear.... which has the biggest nerf in the new rules. On the upswing they did simplify the game mechanics majorly with that change. Which is a good thing.

Personally I'd take two Grave Guard at the same cost of three Skeletons. My core points will probably be close to that 25 percent mark as humanly possible.

Basic combat aside they do have uses like temporary a delaying unit or speed bump. Cheap meat shield for a hero lurking unit. And at at the end of the day they will probably be the cheapest option for getting rank bonuses with hero. Zombies being the best of option to get rank bonuses except for a few problems.
Bojesphob wrote:
Also don't know about whether I would use the 45 skeleton unit as 10x rows or 5x. If I do 10x, wouldn't I want to do 50 so I have 5x rows?
For the Banner of Endless Nightmare the answer is yes. But it isn' critical if people are around with that Lord of the Dead power.

The main reason for ten model front is if you want the option to get up to ten more attacks in every close combat. As a rank support or anvil unit five man front rows are perfectly fine. In fact if they are going to support Grave Guard by providing the ranks I probably would leave them as a five man front most of the time.
Bojesphob wrote:
Anyhow, would this fare better?

Vampire Lord
Abyssal Terror
Flayed Hauberk (2+ armor save)
Sword of Battle (+1 Attack)
Forbidden Lore (using Beast Magic)
Wristbands of Black Gold (3+ Ward save vs. missile attacks of any kind)
Dark Acolyte (Extra magic level)
So that's 480pts? You still need Avatar of Death to be able to wear armor and cast magic. Vampires don't have the armor option in the normal description so the only way around it is to get one of the two armored vamperic powers. On the bright side you can still get Lord of Death in there too for your army theme. That would take you to 515 points.

For another 20 points you can upgrade that magic sword to giving +2 Attacks. 535 points

Another 50 to get the Magic Level to 4. 585 points. Hmm and that's under the 25 percent for Lords in a 2.5k army.

My only regret is not seeing Infinite Hatred on that badboy. Don't know how importantly you feel about magic casting but trading out Dark Ac and you save 5 points. 580 points with a Lord who get's to re-roll six cc-dice each phase. Oh and you don't have the downside that Hatred had in 7th Ed.
Bojesphob wrote:
Corpse Cart
Are you going to lurk it behind the Grave Guard. What about trying to fit that option to mess up enemy magic casting within two feet?
Bojesphob wrote:
Grave Guard x20
Sechenel
Musician
Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Barrows
Great Weapons
This is what I'd call a solid breaker unit. This is the hammer for when an anvil unit has tagged someone or an enemy foolishly got too close. Just don't let them get in a protracted battle since their armor save is 5+, stay on target which is monsters, cav, and ubber armor infantry.
Bojesphob wrote:
Vampire
Dread Knight
Walking Death

Black Knights x10
heck Knight
Musician
Standard Bearer

Wight King
Skeletal Steed with Barding
Sword of Kings
Consider throwing that Wight King the Enchanted Shield for 5 points or the Dawn Stone at 25. Whichever one you give him pass the other item to the Vampire knight. Also get the Vampire a magic sword, if you end up giving him the enchanted shield then throw him the Orge Blade at 40 points for that plus two strength. That's three str 7 attacks at init 6 [insert evil cackle here]

My apologies since all these suggestions may not be possible with your point balancing. It will mean nixing skeletons and possible a rank of Grave Guard. Even then that might not be enough.
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Bojesphob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 11:57 am

I'll play around with the heroes a bit, and will see what adding more grave guard/less skeletons would do to me.

Just curious, is there a rule in the new rule book that says that a Vampire (I guess he counts as a mage) can't wear magic armor and cast spells? And, since I don't have my codex here at work, does it specifically say in the armor portion that it's able to counter that? I still haven't played all that much Fantasy yet, and I want to make sure I'm understanding things as I go

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A tiny portion of humanity turned its back on mankind in the waning days of the last Golden Age. Over one and a half centuries later, the PHR has emerged from the shadows as an unrecognisable civilisation, its people irrevocably changed. They are no longer simple human beings, they are post-humans - cyborgs.

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Evil Bob
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PostSubject: Re: VC 2500 Take 2   VC 2500 Take 2 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 5:45 am

The rules about wizards and armor limitations is in the main rule book.
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