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 What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey

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Stinkyninja
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PostSubject: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:02 pm

Well the journey into the hobby was awesome despite the amount of money that is required to do so. Regardless of how good or bad my model building skills were or are. It was a great way to escape the bump and grind that comes with each new Day. My attraction was partly due to my Dads building of models while growing up. He was a Disabled VietNam Vet. So He was limited to what he could do to pass the time. The end result was He could build battleships inside of bottles. towards the end of His hobby and Days.

Mind you I am not my Dad so my skills are no where even in the same ballpark has his, However it was cool to build and think back to growing up and remember times I had as a kid. So I saved up for a year and a half, To the tune of 2200 hundred dollars and after being involved in Magic The Gathering for over 15 years. I knew it takes serious money to play any of these games. MTG is quite the evil vortex of spending. (Indeed)

I mention the above listed to show motivation for the game in the first place...

So I went forward and went down to Yotta Quest plopped down my nugget I stll have all the sales slips -LOL
It was great I started to turn my friends on to it through demo games for them ETC...
They started armies even got my brother into it. A fantastic ride indeed.

It was the perfect hobby for me My Son started an Army even, Well then came the choice to enter a summer league tourney...

ENTER YOTTAQUEST AND THE UNTOUCHABLES

First off this is not about bashing anyone, However it is a viewpoint of mine based on this little trip I took into the game. In all fairness on my part any way, my coming here to this chat board wasnt that warm and fuzzy either. But Hey you have jerk offs in everything. Yes even in Hobbies such as this one. I mean I have been burnt before in MTG back in 1997 pro tour qualifer down in Orlando while staying with a friend. I developed the first effective sliver deck using Aluren and recycle in a five color deck. To be awarded a bogus call in the last throws of it. Against a good ole boy in the circuit down there.To discover on the net the next day that the person that beat me by bad call of judge. Is given credit for my design of deck, on there site...

I remained quiet then but not now...

Anyway,
After sign up I started to converse with the people there to discover yet another Good Ole Boy circle jerk of people. I was told that they always win and pretty much run the click down there. I have talked to them since the drop kicking of me for the Boys. They don't want to get involved for fear of being black listed. I say black list my ass all day long. I mean who really wants to be a part of something like that...

Anyway, its not about winning or losing after all it is just a game, Also I don't feel that I deserve special treatment due to the amount of money I spent there. I am not one of Jerry's Kids However I do feel fair treatment to some degree is in order. I am also aware that this could also prompt personal attack as indicated by two people just for pointing this out. Both are people here and don't want to be known for telling me this...

Which is crazy !!!

Well I shot all the way up to 4th place and sat there for over a week and the Day after I was amazed at the level of play I was doing I'm thinking awesome. People are emailing and givin me grats. All that kind of Jazz.

Then totals are updated and I am booted for a guy with the same score as me on some bogie reason based on the performance of others I havent even played its non sense all I wanted was a play off for fourth place...

Heres a copy and paste from there forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warhammer 40k Summer League Standings
by MatthewD Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:38 pm

Current standings, as of reported results 10:37pm 08/06/10

Mike Hart (Eldar) 5-0-0
Paul Bowles (Blood Angels) 4-0-1
Christopher Hodge (Tau) 3-0-2
Brian Leugers (Chaos Demons) 3-2-0 Twisted Evil
Bert Mills (Blood Angels) 3-2-0 affraid
Scott Finke (Orks) 2-1-2
Bill Barger (Space Wolves) 2-2-1
Levon H (Orks) 2-3-0
David Setty (Eldar) 2-3-0
Chris Dettone (Space Wolves) 2-3-0
Manny Padilla (Space Marines) 2-3-0
Josh Kenney (Blood Angels) 1-3-1
Ethan Burns (Chaos Demons) 0-1-4
Sean Steiber (Chaos Space Marines) 0-3-2
Stephen Kanzlemar (Tyranids) 0-4-1
Terry Hull (Black Templar) 0-5-0MatthewD

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The playoffs are here and it was a close call for 4th place. We took a look at the wins and losses of those to make our decision. So here is the scoop. Try to get the semi final games in and report back to the forums here.

Mike Hart (Eldar) vs Brian Leugers (Chaos Demons) Twisted Evil
Paul Bowles (Blood Angels) vs Christopher Hodge (Tau)

Good Luck!Matthew M. Fay , CEO and Founder
Yottaquest, LLC 7607 Hamilton Ave, Cincinnati, OH 45231

Website

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How far dose the rabbit hole really go "Who Knows ?" This could be wiped from here for all I know at this point I dont know who runs what as far as sites goes

Bottomline -I wouldnt of said anything accept the network of friends of mine who were building Armies are dropping the game and more upset than I and 2 of them are putting what they got so far up on ebay and craigs list now, and walking away from the game...

But this has no reflection on the game itself its still a great game of strategy only dwarfed by chess in my opinion- If you are new and possibly read this my take is keep the game between friends and stay away from local tourneys...

Like all other games its not the game that is bad but the people who are usually involved tend to cast a bad light on it...

Hey screw it I got a large blood angel and ork army built and painted pretty well PM me with offers

I think I'm done with this gig...










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wittdooley
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:26 pm

I'm just curious how an Eldar player really went 5-0. I mean, they're not bottom tier or anything, but any decent IG, SW, BA, or even 'nilla SM should be them. Also, when you reference your dad, why do you capitalize?

Are you, in fact, the lost son of God? Wow.
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noblejester
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:49 pm

@ wittdooley your must be one of the jerk offs that my bro was talking about, what he is saying is the truth he did get ripped off in that tourney and i do have good starter army built WILL TAKE A GOOD OFFER CAUSE I WILL NOT PLAY THE GAME THERE OR ANY MORE FOR THAT MATTER
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:58 pm

That sucks, Bert. In the 2 years I've played in the Cincinnati area, I've only met 1 jerk. Even the players who completely annihilated me were really cool. I still walked away having a good time.

Either way, congrats on getting that high in the tournament. I had fun playing you the first round. Whatever game you start next, I hope you have better luck avoiding situations like this.
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JimmyJ
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:05 pm

From what I understand of the local community, there is indeed a "good 'ol boys" network in place. Congrats for posting on their forums...I wonder how long the criticism will stay up. At any rate, I don't see any need to quite the game and take your crew with you because of one bad tourney experience. There are other places to play that host tourneys and do it fairly and without bias. I would recommend taking a step back from Yottaquest and the CAG favoritism game and try a few other local shops. I know for a fact that there is a good sized community for 40k at ECG in Milford and AOW in Anderson. I believe they also run games at Up Up and Away. Don't throw in the towel yet.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:12 pm

Dawn, sorry to hear that you've had such a bad experience with things.

That being said, I would say that personally, I wouldn't give up on it. I don't play 40k right now that much, and I do agree that there can be some pretty crappy people out there, but I wouldn't let it get to you. It's just like anything else in life, there are good people and jerks.


But, I guess that's me coming from the angle I am coming from. I don't game because I have to win. It's not an ego boost for me. I started off because I liked the hobby aspects of it. I've got over 300 painted minis, including a Warhound Titan, 2 Baneblades, a Mecharius Vulcan, and a Banehammer. If I were truly only in it for the games, I would have given up after my first tourney (I came in pretty close to dead last). This past 40k Bash I lost all 3 games and finished almost at the bottom again. But, I had fully painted and converted armies both times, and tried to enjoy myself at the tourneys despite the losses.

That being said, you're placement was close, but when they said they looked at your wins/losses for 4th, how close were your games in points? Did you win by slim margins and lose by huge amounts? Did you score average scores and the other player blew away his opponents? Not trying to side with them, per se, but just trying to convey that there might have been some thought that they put into it that wasn't readily apparent.

Anyhow, there are a lot of good people on this board, and in this area, that play. Maybe if 40k isn't your cup of tea in regards to who you're playing against, maybe give Hordes/Warmachine or Warhammer Fantasy Battles a try? If you enjoy the hobby part of things, it would suck to let a bad gaming experience sour you to the hobby as a whole...

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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:42 pm

I played in that league. I actually played all nice folks (and that is me running the Ork army right underneath you!).

I played in the CAG bash too this year, and that was a great experience.

Personally I thought they should have just let all 4th place armies play for the spot. We had missed our designated playoff date anyway.
Really it would be best to keep track of victory points from the get-go, so there are no ties later on - and no 'judgement calls' (and we did that in the first Yotta league that I played in).

Sorry if you are miffed. I would be too, if I had been the "2nd 4th", but I would just put the armies on the shelf and cool off to play more later. There are lots of places to play in Cinti and I haven't met a jerk yet (much less a circle of them - haha) I'd be glad to get in a game with you, fun games 'out of a league' can be more relaxing.

Last league I played in I didn't win a game, but I got a good handle on my army.



BTW:
""I'm just curious how an Eldar player really went 5-0. I mean, they're not bottom tier or anything, but any decent IG, SW, BA, or even 'nilla SM should be them""
Mike runs a shooty Foot-Eldar force and he handles it really well. He plays a lot of historical minis -- he deploys smart and plays the missions well. He beat me!
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FrostFirus
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:57 pm

To make sure everyone is clear before I begin, I am Ryan, one of the Managers at YottaQuest. My being here is not necessarily to promote the views of YottaQuest or its Owner. I have been here to help people with Warmachine and Hordes primarily and to look at starting 40K personally. Now that my disclaimer is out of the way...

I am not a big player of 40K and have knowledge mostly of army building and the various armies based on research from various places. I have no functional knowledge of the rules of play. This is important because I do not know the ways in which 40K runs tournaments or run Tie Breakers. Since I spoke with Bert yesterday about this issue I have since looked into the matter and have found out that there is a system of points used.

Now, I am very experienced with the way a number of other game's formats run tiebreakers including: Magic, Warmachine and Hordes, and many now defunct games like Star Wars Minis, D&D Minis, UFS, and VS. Most of these games use a Strength of Schedule basis for determining tie breakers. This is in the end how we determined who, between Bert and Brian would be given the 4th place berth into the finals. Specifically, because of a large number of drops and games not played, we focused on the Strength of Schedule of players that each player lost to.

Bert:
R1 L to Manny - finished league with 2-3-0
R5 L to Chris - finished league with 3-0-2

Brian:
R2 L to Mike - finished league with 5-0-0
R4 L to Bill - finished league with 2-2-1

Bert's Opponents who defeated him won 5 and tied 2; Brian's Opponents who defeated him won 7 and tied 1.

Therefore it was determined that Brain would be given the last spot in the finals based on Strength of Schedule.

This was not our only thought on how to resolve this issue. We had considered having a playoff for the spot, basing it on complete Strength of Schedule, and on who held the spot at the beginning of the 4th round. Ultimately, we would have preferred to used GW's Point Based system; however, this would not seem reasonable due to the nature of a self-reporting league. One problem with the way this was resolved I believe is the lack of transparency between the Tournament Organizer and the Players, if it had been known that ties would be resolved in this way from the start, I believe there would be no problem here. Therefore, it has been posted in the official rules for 40K leagues run by YottaQuest will now have ties determined in this manner.


As a note to the 'Good Ol' Boys' accusation, there was no consideration to which player would come out on top before deciding which method would be used to determine the result in this case, or in any matter at YottaQuest. The store has no personal stock in having one player over another being the winner in any tournament or league; further, in this tournament no member of staff had any personal bias in this matter either. Also, as no players had any input on how this would be resolved, I fail to see how such an accusation was warranted. However, I understand that perception is reality, and we did not do a great job in presenting this with the transparency that it should have been given.


Lastly, as a personal note to Bert, I hope that this is not your cause for leaving the game. You obviously have done very well in learning the strategy and rules of 40K to be tied for 4th in your first League. You have showed painting skills beyond what a normal beginner does and I believe that you could be an exceptional painter in the future with more time to refine your skills. Even if this experience has left such a bad taste in your mouth that you would not wish to venture forth to YottaQuest ever again, there are many other local stores that also have great 40K groups to play with.

Ryan Dawes
YottaQuest, LLC Manager
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wittdooley
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:59 pm

noblejester wrote:
@ wittdooley your must be one of the jerk offs that my bro was talking about, what he is saying is the truth he did get ripped off in that tourney and i do have good starter army built WILL TAKE A GOOD OFFER CAUSE I WILL NOT PLAY THE GAME THERE OR ANY MORE FOR THAT MATTER

First, I don't know who you are, Mr. First Post Today, but you should probably not make comments like this out of complete ignorance. It makes you look like a fool.

As for the game, the answer is simple: Don't play in a league. You can have plenty of fun playing pick up games, or simply playing with your friends.

So a Foot Eldar army? I assume he has to run some kind of armour in there, right? At least Wave Serpents?
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:22 pm

Dawnpatrol - listen to Witt - play some fun games (try a couple games of Planetstrike games -real beer & pretzels type gaming) maybe get in on a multi-player Apoc game. Lots of fun to be had. Most folks don't play in leagues.




(PS - Witt - I played him at a low point level, so he had a bunch of walkers, he runs a couple skimmers at higher point levels. I have named his army 'withering fire'.)
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:27 pm

I would suggest that you not allow one bad experience to sour you on the game. The game system known as Warhammer 40K is a fine game, and the current edition is referenced by many as the best that 40K has ever been. Consider continuing to play 40K, and find opponents and a style of the game that best fits the way that you choose to have fun.

Agreeing to play a game with someone is a social contract between two people to create an enjoyable experience for both participants. Often times the competitive nature of our hobby overshadows this.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:04 pm

I don't really know the guys who play at yottaquest but my experince up there has always been bad when it comes to any games. Try playing at another gaming store I live in fairfield and would much rather drive to EGC or AOW before playing at yotta. The people you meet at these stores are 1000 times better. Yes there is a click but its not like they push people away. I recently started playing warmachine and found a ton of very helpful people at EGC and AOW.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:10 pm

Wow. Bert and Bert's brother...repeat after me...."just a game" "just a game".

First, on this board...courtesy is required. We all know each other, we WILL run into each other at game stores for the most part and everyone can agree to get along. We also are familiar w/ the owners and managers who run the LGS's. I will guarentee that ALL of them do not want to turn good business away. They want folks enjoying the games they offer and the environment they deliver in which to play those games.

To come on here and start firing off about a LGS and their policies seems to be more sour grapes. If you haven't had a chance to talk to the store owner or manager(s), I really don't feel like you criticism of the situation is on a solid foundation. You provide only 1 side to the group and don't allow the LGS to have a voice in response.

I'm glad FF can get on and represent the Yotta's decision tree on the matter. The logic is/was a sound approach to a tie break.

So... if you want to dump your army/armies...feel free. List them in the section below w/ detail about price. You might get an offer. Anything else is just posturing and you come across like a couple of chicks who just go dumped the day before the prom.

seriously...re-read you post in the moring. 30% of it is how you got screwed in a magic game in Florida over 10 years ago? Really..... Let it go.
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:02 pm

And people want to know why I quit playing 40k.......sad
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:26 pm

ugh the ridiculous price increase
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:31 pm

CJ wrote:
And people want to know why I quit playing 40k.......sad

I thought it was because you were terrible at 40k?
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Dayth
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:25 pm

wittdooley wrote:
CJ wrote:
And people want to know why I quit playing 40k.......sad

I thought it was because you were terrible at 40k?

that is awesome lol
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:53 am

Wow, it's not often I log on to a site and seen so much poo thrown at me. And not one, but 2 evil faces by my name. I guess I'll have to switch to a Nurgle avatar. I have been wanting to get an Epidemius list going, too. Filth for the Lord of Sludge.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:58 am

wittdooley wrote:


So a Foot Eldar army? I assume he has to run some kind of armour in there, right? At least Wave Serpents?

Last I checked it was:

Eldrad
Fuegan
20x guardians
5xpathfinders
10x banshees
5x fire dragons in serpent
6x War Walkers with dual scatter lasers

He puts the walkers in cover, casts fortune, guide, and doom and uses them to demolish any two units of his choosing each turn while they are nearly invincible from rerollable cover saves. The cheese is strong in that one.

There is almost no way to beat it with a typical balanced tourney list. You have to actually build something into your army specifically to destroy the walkers very early in the game. Most of the units that can do that are weird things no one ever uses like vanguards with all thunderhammers, or Commander Dante and a squad of guys with melta guns, or Dark Eldar. A bunch of Trygons and Hive Guards will own all over that army, but it appears the bugs aren't too interested in the Yotta sector of the galaxy.

@all you other ubernerds

I happen in to Yottaquest quite a bit and it's a great game store.

That said, it isn't a big 40k store. Most of the guys in their 40k leagues are fresh faced noobs who play Magic or D&D there and want a change of pace. Then there are always three or four other guys who own all of those noobs. Then the noobs cry that 40k is unfair.

This is an old story.

The 4th place debacle is a bummer, but 40k is full of bummers. It's a really hard game. If you can't take it then I suggest the Beauty and the Beast handheld electronic game from Tiger.



My sister had it when we were kids. You win every time.
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CJ
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:52 am

wittdooley wrote:
CJ wrote:
And people want to know why I quit playing 40k.......sad

I thought it was because you were terrible at 40k?


SHHHHH you hater!!!


MIKE LEON IS A GOD!!!!

@ BRIANL.......need to quit using your mind tricks on people there buddy.....
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:05 am

Thanks Sean... now I have coffee on my keyboard.

@Dayth...what ridiculous price increase? And when? I'm not even sure that price has a place in the debate b/c it can be a long one.


The title is why 40K is a bad game. 40K is not a bad game b/c it costs more then I think it should. Are Ferrari's sh*tty cars now too?

I think that the fact someone doesn't like his seeding is not any indication of 40K being a bad game.

Maybe the FLGS, maybe the league is bad, but to indict 40K as bad...hmmm not sure. If anything, 40K (and I will add most table top gaming) are bad for tournaments. Armies are never balanced, tables are different and scenarios can hurt/help certain armies... think speed freak orcs w/ a bunch of difficult terrain.

If you wanted a good tournament game everyone would need to show up w/ the same 1850 list and see how you do...or perhaps scrabble?


40K is not a bad game 'cause I lose w/ my Necrons.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:05 am

Would anybody be interested in a game of Beauty and the Beast? I'm available on Saturday. We could sit around my place, watch some smurfs, drink cool aid and battle for a high score. I'm feeling nastalgic....
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:00 am

Frank wrote:
Would anybody be interested in a game of Beauty and the Beast? I'm available on Saturday. We could sit around my place, watch some smurfs, drink cool aid and battle for a high score. I'm feeling nastalgic....

Oh sweet! The first annual CAG Beauty and the Beast Bash! Wear pajamas and you get 100 bonus points. Smores will be made available as a donation from Chicago Smores inc. This will be a strict BYOCC (bring your own coco) event. WYSIWYG is in effect, no bringing asteroids or frogger Sean!!! I'm sick of you always winning ya Dag gone dirty cheater.

Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:29 am

John Gemrich wrote:
@Dayth...what ridiculous price increase? And when? I'm not even sure that price has a place in the debate b/c it can be a long one.
The 15 or 25% GW did that made me switch to playing warmachine. I was just saying that as a joke to why CJ stopped playing. I just didnt quote him.
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PostSubject: Re: What makes 40k a bad game an exposition of my journey   Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:28 am

Dayth wrote:
John Gemrich wrote:
@Dayth...what ridiculous price increase? And when? I'm not even sure that price has a place in the debate b/c it can be a long one.
The 15 or 25% GW did that made me switch to playing warmachine. I was just saying that as a joke to why CJ stopped playing. I just didnt quote him.

Gotcha.

Altough I don't find the price points to be that disimillar to get into both games.
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