A friendly group of people looking to share their Hobby!!!
 
HomeFAQSearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsLog in

Share | 
 

 Fast vehicles, transports and shooting

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Mike Leon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 667
Join date : 2008-05-12

PostSubject: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:07 pm

On page 66 of the rulebook, under Fire Points, it says that passengers cannot fire out of a transport at all if it moves at cruising speed.

altahara says a Dark Eldar raider can move 12" and then the passengers can all shoot out of it.

His reasoning is that fast vehicles count 12" movement as combat speed.

I say no.

Page 70 of the rulebook (the rules for fast vehicles) says no such thing. In fact, it lists seperate conditions for fast vehicles moving at combat, cruising and flat out speeds.

What say you CAG?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://whowritesthisstuff.net/
Matt
CAG Founder


Posts : 3552
Join date : 2007-08-19
Location : Cincinnati, OH

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:39 pm

really wish i'd have brought my rulebook out here with me Sad

_________________
Dark Angels 1750 win/loss Record
Win - 23 (Belial helped wreck Ryan's puny Eldar)
Loss - 13 (Brice's Necrons wiped me)
Draw - 2 (The 13th hold out in alpha take and hold)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com
Mike Leon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 667
Join date : 2008-05-12

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:41 pm

Where are you?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://whowritesthisstuff.net/
Affliction
Forum Moderator


Posts : 655
Join date : 2007-08-20
Age : 42
Location : Cincinnati, Oh.

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:29 pm

I agree with mike the fire point rule states ...

(pg66), "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn".

Pretty strait forward.

Now according to mike, altahara says that fast vehicles count 12" movement as combat speed. Just because two things work similar does not mean they are the same thing. No where in the "Fast Vehicle Firing" section (pg70) does the words "count as" exist. It says that the vehicle can fire all weapons at combat speed and one weapon at cruising speed. If you use "counts as" that means all the rule would apply from one to the other and in this case they don't.

The "Fire Point" rule is pretty clear and there is nothing in the "Transport, Fast Vehicle Firing, or the Fire Point" sections to say different.

So long story short, the answer should be...No you can't fire out of a vehicle that moves more than 6"

But I am sure there is some god forsaken GW rule out there that makes absolutely no sense to explain this away like all the other rules we have talked about this week. Thank goodness Games Workshop has a lock on the market because their sheer stupidity would sink the company.

"PRAISE BE TO GW MARKETING DEPARTMENT !!!!" - <3 All the peole who work for Games Workshop

_________________


40K Stats: ...is dead to me Evil or Very Mad
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://theblackparade2010.blogspot.com/
Sexiest_hero
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 399
Join date : 2008-12-05
Age : 36

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:39 pm

I'm pretty sure that they can, and yes I don't know why GW puts rules in the rulle book that half the codei (spelling?) over-ride anyway.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Affliction
Forum Moderator


Posts : 655
Join date : 2007-08-20
Age : 42
Location : Cincinnati, Oh.

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:00 pm

So "pretty sure" that's like "counts as" or is there more conclusive evidence for your theory.

_________________


40K Stats: ...is dead to me Evil or Very Mad
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://theblackparade2010.blogspot.com/
Mike Leon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 667
Join date : 2008-05-12

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:50 am

There is no way.

It says on page 70 that fast vehicles moving at Combat speed can fire all of their weapons.

If altahara is right and 12" is Combat speed, then that means a land speeder tornado or typhoon can fire all of its weapons after moving 12". So can any eldar tank. A Baal Predator can do it too.

All of you eldar and space marine players know that is not the case.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://whowritesthisstuff.net/
Sexiest_hero
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 399
Join date : 2008-12-05
Age : 36

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:14 am

I Posted the question on dakka, hopefully somebody thee knows.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
altahara
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 700
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 34
Location : West Chester

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:01 am

MIKE I HAVE A RULING FROM GW!!

SHEESH..

Quote :
Hello,

As squad embarked on an open-topped, Fast Vehicle may fire all weapons if it is stationary, may fire all non-heavy weapons if it moves at Combat Speed(12” or less) and may fire nothing if it moves faster than Combat speed.



The Dark Eldar Destructor says roll for each target hit, so you would roll for each squad/unit.



Thanks!



John Spencer

Customer Service Specialist



Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!



Games Workshop

Customer Service

6711 Baymeadow Drive Suite A

Glen Burnie MD 21060



Games Workshop Customer Service is open:

Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST



Contact info:

1-888-248-2335

see the part where HE says
Quote :
may fire all non-heavy weapons if it moves at Combat Speed(12” or less)
i do believe that proves my point.. I am terribly sorry if you do not like this ruling.. but that comes straight from them.. If you would like me to foreward you the email so you can see that i have not tampered with it in any way please feel free to send me your email address..

{/end rant}
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAND OF DUME
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-04-24
Age : 46
Location : Wastelands of the Miami county

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:21 am

It says it all on Page 70. Under open topped vehicles. "All passengers in an open topped vehicles may fire..." then under fast vehicles firing on the same page "fast moving vehicles may fire a single weapon and all defensive weapons just like other types of vehicles moving at combat speed".

i.e.- A fast open topped vehicle moving at cruising speed may fire a single weapon and all defensive weapons (str 4 or less). So yes, a raider"s passengers may fire when at cruising speed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
altahara
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 700
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 34
Location : West Chester

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:23 am

the ruling specifies that 12" or less is combat speed... whatever it is called... open topped fast transports can have their passengers fire at 12".. this also means ORKS can fire from their trukks... at 13" if its red..
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAND OF DUME
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-04-24
Age : 46
Location : Wastelands of the Miami county

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:30 am

6-12" is cruising speed. But when a fast moving vehicle/transport moves at this speed, it can fire as if it's moving at combat speed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
altahara
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 700
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 34
Location : West Chester

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:34 am

yes i know what it states.. the ruling from gw says combat speed (12" or less) etc etc.. and were talking about the passengers... not the vehicle itself... so..

my raiders will move 12" every game i play and the passengers will fire.. until i see a FAQ on GWs website..
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Marc
Fantasy Moderator


Posts : 2428
Join date : 2007-08-20
Location : Milford

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:52 am

altahara wrote:
the ruling from gw says..
Those emails are unofficial. Besides, a simple "Customer Service Specialist" does not have a say for rules clarifications. That would be like asking a dietary runner if they could offer an opinion on Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy and then you take that info to heart..

altahara wrote:
..my raiders will move 12" every game i play and the passengers will fire.. until i see a FAQ on GWs website..
You need an opponent first Rolling Eyes
An opponent would argue the other way until they see a FAQ on GWs website... blah, blah, blah
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cincycag.forumotion.com/
JTPitt
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 890
Join date : 2007-12-14
Age : 34
Location : Deer Park

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:52 am

Unfortunatel Altahara it only says the vehicle it does not state that the passangers inside can actually fire. As it stands the rule from the book has covered the passengers shooting from inside the vehicle.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sexiest_hero
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 399
Join date : 2008-12-05
Age : 36

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:44 am

Ugh thanks GW, I'm sure that they intended for them to move 12" and fire, but it is just implied and not quite stated. So by raw they can't. Yes it's silly that they can get out and shoot, then assault, the tank can shoot, yet if they stay in the tank they get lazy. Ifyou can't agree then the rule book states to roll off. Calling gw SHOULD give you the right answer, but they are known for giving different answers with every call. It's just shody writing by GW that ends up with something that makes little sense. To this day I still have to fight over Lictor deployment at turnies. Thanks a bunch, GW.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAND OF DUME
Initiate
Initiate


Posts : 496
Join date : 2008-04-24
Age : 46
Location : Wastelands of the Miami county

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:29 pm

I wouldn't rely on a "flunky" at customer service for rules questions. From experience, they have been proven to be incorrect.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Mike Leon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 667
Join date : 2008-05-12

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:09 pm

I sent GW an email yesterday about this. I probably won't hear back until Monday.

There is clearly a typo in the "ruling" as it states 12" is Combat speed. 12" is Cruising speed. the main rulebook makes this very clear on page 57.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://whowritesthisstuff.net/
Carl_Dillon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 378
Join date : 2008-04-08
Age : 42

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:37 pm

Ok, The Dark Eldar Raider is a Fast Open Topped Transport. Yes I know its also a skimmer and may have other rules but I think these are the only ones important in this discussion.
I will reference the following pages for this summary.
Page 57 for the speeds and movement.
Page 66 under “Fire Points” third paragraph.
“Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and MAY NOT FIRE AT ALL if the vehicle moved a Cruising speed.
Page 70 under “Open Topped Transport Vehicles” Sentence one and two. “Open topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.
Page 70 under “Moving Fast Vehicles” sentences one & two. Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called ‘flat out’. A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12” and up to 18”.
Page 70 under “Fast Transport Vehicles”. “Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it hs moved (or is going to move) flat our in that Movement phase.”
Page 67 first bullet point last sentence. “ After Disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault.

So at combat Speed ( 0” & up to 6”)
The Raider Can fire its weapon.
The Troops can All fire their weapons measuring distance from the hull.

At Cruising Speed (6” & up to 12”)
The Raider Can fire its weapon.
The Troops Can not fire. However if they disembark they may shoot their weapons (P67). Per the rules for open topped vehicles they may also choose to assault (P70)

At Flat out (12” & up to 18” or 24” on a road)
The Raider Can NOT fire its weapon.
The Troops Can Not fire their weapons embark or disembark from the vehicle this turn.

Hope this helps.
Carl

_________________
1-1-1 Dark Eldar
2 - 3 Dark Elves
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist.
Children already know that dragons exist.
Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed."
G.K.Chesterton
Back to top Go down
View user profile
wittdooley
Veteran Sergeant
Veteran Sergeant


Posts : 1125
Join date : 2008-03-27
Age : 33
Location : Cincinnati / Western Hills

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:07 pm

Well put, Carl. I agree with you!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
altahara
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 700
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 34
Location : West Chester

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:58 am

again.. i have a ruling from gw.. customer service or not.. it was there "rules questions" section..

if you all have decided that a ruling from a gw employee is not enough.. fine dont play me.. ive had a bad day.. mike..get over it
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Makari
Supreme Forum Overlord


Posts : 3251
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 38
Location : Milford, OH

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:14 am

I suggest taking your question to Dakka Dakka and hope that Yakface can answer it. Calling the 1800 will not give you an official answer, just an answer from someone who knows the rules. Yakface on Dakka Dakka is actually the main guy who writes the GW FAQ's and is one of teh main writers for the International FAQ 2.0.

Having said that, unless it specifically says they can do that in the Dark Eldar Codex, They can't. It is in the rulebook as such.

_________________
The footprints made in the sands of time are not made by sitting down... Unless your playing Warhammer WAAAGH!

New times calls for new Records:
Orcs & goblins (3-1-2)
Empire (0-0-0)
6th Edition
Orks (0-0)
Marines (3-1)
Imperial Guard (0-0)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://myspace.com/makarithraka
altahara
Sergeant
Sergeant


Posts : 700
Join date : 2007-11-10
Age : 34
Location : West Chester

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:36 am

wow.. so emailing GW, the section SPECIFICALLY for rules issues.. is usless.. when noone decides to use the answer.. yea wonderfull guys..

oh and @MARC.. yea i do need opponents.. i guess just not you.. and was that a threat of "If you play it the way you are tolf BY GW that you can play it then we wont play you because we dont like that rule"??? man seriously.. just... yea..


so again.. guys.. ive re-emailed them.. and posted on dakka dakka.. but i will trust and EMAIL saying GW on it more than just a forum response.. and if he is the guy who does FAQs... then he will go and update it and say "Even though the vehicle may fire passengers still may not" or something like that.. like in the adda a sentence part of the GW FAQ..
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:14 am

OK.... deep breath.

First... we post rules questions here to get the feeling of thegroup (CAG) on how to play a rule.

Remember a FAQ is just a house rule.

Having said that I believe a response from GW should hold some weight.

In this case the fact that the rep refers to combat speed as 12 inches or less doesn't help with the response's credibility.

This portion of the response is incorrect utlization of game vocabulary since 6 to 12 is clearly cruising speed.

Carl lays out the argument well and from RAW is how Id play. However, Id change or insert Altahara's version when playing DE in a friendly game if they play at a significant disadvantage to other armies in general.
Back to top Go down
Carl_Dillon
Forum Moderator


Posts : 378
Join date : 2008-04-08
Age : 42

PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:22 am

I agree that the responce was correct in everything except the distance he quoted as combat speed.

_________________
1-1-1 Dark Eldar
2 - 3 Dark Elves
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist.
Children already know that dragons exist.
Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed."
G.K.Chesterton
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Fast vehicles, transports and shooting   Today at 6:50 am

Back to top Go down
 
Fast vehicles, transports and shooting
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Fast vehicles, transports and shooting
» 40K and Shooting from Fast vehicles
» moving vehicles in the shooting phase
» firing from fire points
» 1000 pt Eldar list

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
CAG :: Warhammer 40k :: 40k Rules Questions & Discussion-
Jump to: